Well, since we are on the topic of who in golf teaching pioneered “ground forces”, with all due respect to Mike Maves and others mentioned in this thread who have made a name for themselves of late using this idea of ground forces in the swing, my staff and I have been teaching the concept of ground forces in the golf swing as well as Dynamic Opposing Forces in the body since 1995. At that time NO ONE in golf - as far as we knew at the time - was teaching this concept. You should have seen the looks on some of our student’s faces in the first hour of a three day golf swing school when we cover basic swing theory and talked about the feet to ground connection at Setup and during the swing itself. It was like we were speaking Chinese. And some of the local teaching pros thought we were nuts talking about this stuff.
The “pre-torquing” the feet thing has been part of our method since then as well. We do it by bowing the knees out about 1/4 inch and then bracing with inward pressure in the feet/ankles and inner thighs at Setup, and attempting to keep that pressure almost to the Finish. Its a little different from Mike’s concept since it creates a clockwise torque in the right foot and leg and a counter clockwise torque in the left, whereas Mike want clockwise in the left foot and leg as well.
I got my understanding of the ground forces, the importance of Balance and the kinetic chain, ie “power from the ground up and from the inside out” (inside and Core muscles to the wrists) from my background in Asian martial arts. It is widely known in martial arts and the great Bruce Lee talked about it extensively. You can see it in the way he moves when he is fighting.
Then in the early ninties I discovered some of these ideas were actually discovered and proved “under the gun” by Hogan. I have written on iseek last year about this at length.
Anyhow, just thought I would set the record straight as I have been a bit quiet on the forums lately and feel our contribution has been overlooked in this important area of golf instruction. And we don’t just talk about it as some kind of theory. We have actually taught this to several thousand of our golf students who have attended our Balance Point golf schools since we opened in 1995.
It’s a very slight outward pressure, the knees only move 1/4 inch. However, if you were my student and had difficulty doing this, I would make an exception and recommend that you use neutral knees or no pressure.
To be honest i always thought the right was an advantage. Venturi built a wedge into his right shoe to put it in a position that I had naturally. The problem was with the left. I couldn’t get it to rotate out over my foot and I would get stuck not being able to rotate enough left in the lower body. I finally learned to let my foot crank around but it’s hard to do consistently.
Yeah, that makes sense. I have two students currently who are naturally knock-kneed and they have the same problem. Either they stay stuck on their right side or they transfer too much weight left and tend to spin out the left foot. Playing around with various degrees of left foot flare, left leg firmness and left knee flex until they found a combo that enabled them to transfer some weight to the left leg/hip but without the left foot spin out is what worked for them. The pre-set left knee bowing out pressure makes the left transfer during forward swing a bit easier and also prevents too much hip turn on the backswing. Sets up Resistance in the lower body so you have the two Opposing Forces of Lower and Upper Body Pivot relationship already established at Setup. Helps your Balance a ton.
As I got older and everything naturally compacted and shortened up it became less and less of an issue. Learning the importance of finishing higher than high made it so I could keep the left foot stable and left leg flexed. I started to get more of a Byron Nelson move after impact through the finish and everything took care of itself.
Man — lots of good thoughts. I guess what I was saying was that, as Lag teaches in mod 2 and BPGS’s explanation stresses, the mechanical forces on the knees in their approaches are one of linear force (squeeze), and not of (twist) corkscrew. Since my MCL issue (not golf caused) is sensitive to forces applied, I found it interesting that squeezing caused no problem, but torquing gave my knee a - don’t do that again moment. I do find it funny that, as BP said, nobody was talking much in golf about the ground connection as recently as the nineties. Like martial arts, boxing also was as much about footwork as handwork.
BPS,
Since 1990 our team have been researching, testing and teaching ground forces… In 1991 our team did a feature article in golf digest in the US the science behind ground forces … On the theory and how ground force apply and work in the golfswing… Since 1990 not only in golf in a long list of sports our team has been researching and testing ground forces using force/pressure plates and also using force/motion and Emg data…We have tested 10’s of thousand of athletes over the years… We have been teaching athletes how to create ground force since 1990… We are always testing new ways and training programs to each athletes ground forces and movement patterns…
How do you think we established the Kinetic Link… ground forces are part of the Kinetic Link…
By trying to maintain left knee flexion or squeezing our feet etc doesn’t create good ground forces… The knee flexion or screwing,squeezing the feet isn’t what creates good ground forces…
We know this cause we researched and tested trying to keep knee flexion and squeezing etc…
What creates good ground forces is developed from creating a certain movement pattern and this movement pattern creates good ground forces naturally…
This why even though some people have the same ground force issue you give them the same training exercise to develop this certain movement pattern and doesn’t work for some people… Who knows why it doesn’t… it just doesn’t work for them and doesn’t develop the movement pattern which creates good ground forces… You have to devise another exercise which will work for them…
As I have said there is no one way method to teach ground forces …there not a one size exercise or technique suits everyone… due to the fact we all have different ground force issues which is caused by poor movement patterns …You have to keep devising new exercises and training programs for each individual athlete…to adress their individual movement patterns issues which create poor ground forces…
Ground forces not only apply in golf they also apply in most bat and ball sports… tennis, baseball etc…
To teach ground forces you don’t teach this using mechanics it’s not a mechanical issue… it’s a movement patterns issue… you learn ground force by training your body to create the right movement patterns…by creating the right movement patterns you create good ground forces…
The Kinetic Link is the power generation process of how the body creates motion in sequence and speed … Again this needs to be taught through movement pattern training not using golf mechanics… there two ways… learn basic mechanics first and then learn movement patterns (kinetic link) or learn movement patterns first (kinetic LINk) and then add the mechanics…
Here’s the problem everyone reads about the theory of ground forces the shear and normal forces and try to apply these force in practice… although this isn’t how the forces function in practice… by trying to screwing our feet etc won’t create the shear forces or normal forces nor will trying to maintain knee flxexion or squeezing etc… we know this cause we have tested and researched these methods…
To create good ground forces are created naturally by creating good movement patterns…
This is not an opinion or belief or my say so this is from 20 years of reserach,testing and training athletes in golf, tennis and major league baseball…
This is actually true, any feet twisting done on purpose wont increase shear forces, it will screw them up, gee i read some crap about hogan and secret stuff but that crap by maves was a joke, utter nonsense by a fraud trying to use Hogans name
And then the other excuses like I stripe it but cant putt or chip, whatever, thousands of people can stripe it and better, but claiming all the Hogan whizbangery secrets is bordering on a lot of white walls, after all if you did KNOW the flag would be getting knocked down all day, practice 4 footers and the Show beckons
There are certainly different ways of doing things…
The feet for most hackers do nothing other than act as pegs for their legs.
Like BPGS says, this is nothing new… whether it has been talked about or not… you can see these concepts back the the early swings of the game, Vardon, Hagen, and so forth.
I don’t know what they did back then to train for it… but occasionally I do read something that skims over it.
The protocols for the lower body need to follow or work with what is happening in the torso. The right foot can lift and aid in clearing the left hip that can then aid in speeding up torso rotation in theory, but that method does run it’s risks.
Keeping the right foot down is all fine and well if you have great torso rotation that works independent of a firing left knee. If it’s pivot thrust in a rotary way then the feet are going to need to support and also offer resistance to create any kind of real thrust.
If your simply a velocity junkie, then you might want to just get things moving quickly by lifting the right foot early, firing the left knee, and spinning the hips and torso as fast as a Texas gunslinger. But that isn’t always going to give you the best control… look at Tiger. He’s one of the worst drivers on tour, and it doesn’t say much for the state of the game that that kind of performance can be rewarded with record winning.
Everything you do by design is very inter dependent upon other things… footwork include.
I want my students hitting it long and straight… and they will have to work hard to do that… not much is free in this game other than broken tees…
Lag - very well said, I am in complete agreement. The question is this: is it worth the sacrifice in terms of loss of Balance to let the right foot lose ground connection a bit through Release and Impact and to over-fire the straightening left knee, all in an attempt to gain a faster hip, Core and shoulder girdle Pivot Thrust, so that you can hit the driver maybe 15 yards farther? For me, and for 90% of my amateur students, no way. Solid contact is Job #1 and maintaining some right foot to ground connection and a bit of left knee flex through Impact is key to achieving that.
BPS…
When you see pictures of the likes of hogan and Knudson etc with knee flexion this is and end result of a chain of events… These guys didn’t try to maintain knee flexion this just occured from creating good movement patterns which created good ground forces… the knee flexion occurs naturally as a result of good lower body movement patterns…
You can try and maintain knee flexion although won’t stop your hips from spining out and not stabilising at impact… maintaining knee flexion doesn’t create decleration so the lowerbdoy can’t stabilise at impact… Deceleration of the lowerbody is what creates the lowerbody to stabilise at impact…
Straightening the left knee isn’t going to increase hip speed either… This is actually a really bad movement pattern to teach anyone… It’s actually one of the worst moves which creates ACL and knee injuires, also cause left hip joint centre issues and strained muscles in the glutes etc…
Tiger is well aware he has a lower body issues and as a result he sustained knee injuries from poor lower body movement patterns… He’s trying to fix the problem although doesn’t know how to… If it was as easy as maintaining knee flexion surely a man of his talent could just focus on maintaining his knee flex and fix the problem… Tiger has a lower body movement pattern issue and needs to address this in order to fix his current issues he has from his left knee straightening…
Tigers problem is his lower body doesn’t decelerate effectively and his lower body doesn’t stabilise at impact very effectively… This is due to having poor lower body movement patterns… Tiger is creating what we call superficial lower body speed this is what causes his current issues… He’s never been taught how to create the right lower body movement patterns to create proper lower body speed …so his hips accelerate and deceleate and then his lowerbody can stabilise at impact…
How does the lower body stabilise at impact? the lowerbody must decelerate to be able to stabilise… this has absolutley nothing to do with maintaining knee flexion…
Creating good lower body movement patterns then creates good ground forces… these combined is what creates lower body speed, lower body stability, knee flexion, acceleration and deceleration of hip speed… This applies to any bat and ball sport really…
Here’s something of interest we worked with a few former number 1 golfers in the world… when their hips reached impact they actually counter talked… the hips stopped and turned clockwise a few degrees… pretty cool stuff … once everything catches up stikes the ball the hips take off again…
on video you would never pick it… looks like there body never stops rotating…
Just an opinion but I don’t think you give him enough credit for being smart or having a good move. Injuries happen to people. A lot of the knee problems are from damage done when he was much younger and tweaked the hell out of it. A lot more comes from his intensive training and running than his swing nowadays. I don’t see much wrong with the way his mechanics are evolving. I wouldn’t dare give him advice on hitting a golf ball. Guys like him, Seve, the Haig aren’t wired for hitting fairways and greens and are smart enough to know it. He’s a big boy putting on a clinic every time he pulls the club back. Just like I never would have taken judgment on Seve’s game. Numbers are numbers and there’s not a lot of people qualified to take up heirs here. Studying it and learning is one thing but Judging is a totally different deal. Genius is once in a lifetime and I’m glad to have a front row seat even if I never cared for him as a person.
I still think Tigers swing was better when he was winning his last US Am and when he 1st came on Tour. It just looked way much more in control when I watch the old tapes. A lot of people would disagree. I know he had to change his swing over the last few years, but I think thats because he was trying to adjust to the new drivers. He still has a fantastic move, but to me I thought he swung the club more affectively when he 1st came out on tour. I guess the question is could he have done what he has with the old swing? I think he probably could have.
I think there are a lot of us “armchair instructors” in that same camp freddie. Watching that Palmer golf gala replay from 97 yesterday it was almost jarring to see Tiger look so much smaller than he does today and swing it under so much more control than he seems to today (at least to my eye). They were all using metal, but small heads… I don’t remember if Tiger was using steel in the shaft or not… maybe the equipment was a factor. It just seems like a lot of his current day driver swings are over-accelerated, followed by a “u da man”, followed by “fore right”.
It’s hard to critique the number 1 player of the day but I sure did like his move back then.
Take up "bow"ling for 3 or 4 years…naturally. Actually, you’re probably screwed and pre-destined to horrible ground pressures due to your leg deformities.
Styles,
It’s pretty cool to see this, hard to believe although all players combined with good lowerbody movement patterns which create the right gorund forces will produce this phenomenon to occur… Every top athlete who has a good kinetic link or power generation process… what they all have in common is this phonomenon occurs with all of them with the lower body…
Not only in golf will you this phenomenon occur this all happen is other sports like tennis, baseball any bat and ball sport really… The power generation process or Kinetic link is how our body nautrally wants to create speed from the ground up…
If you create the right lower body movement patterns and ground forces this will occur in your golfswing as well…
You can train your body to achieve this and as I said this is why we are continually researching, testing, new techniques, exercises and training programs to train athletes how to create these movement patterns in your golfswing… As athlete we are unique and all have different movement pattern issues…
This is where biomechanics in the future can play a huge role in golf …is being able to measure and identify what peoples exact movement pattern issues are…what their exact ground force issues are… Once you can idnetify this you create exercises etc to train people how to create the right movement patterns in their golfswing and train the body how to create the power generation process or kinetic link… the way our body is designed to move and naturally wants to create speed… Once our body is taught this becomes second nature and you produce these movement automatically with no thought process…
Research has proven that all the topic athletes in their sport have in common is they all create the same power generation process…
Ground Forces are a tad more complex then holding knee flex etc and play a lot bigger role in or golfswing then we realise…
