Nah, must’ve hit a sprinkler head or the ground was near frozen…it couldn’t have been the training here, Cannon-boy! 
Cheers,
Captain Chaos
I thought this was great! Mike and famous friend having fun:
“turn it in” equals module #1
Love the hickories…!
Here is a clip of Mike Maves playing with Steve Elkington
Contrary to what Ritchie3Jack has stated, Mike Maves is convinced he does swing exactly like Hogan except for his excess weight and clearly believes he knows all of Ben Hogan’s secrets etc
Here are some mail that was forwarded “around the traps”
[b]You know, Hogan wanted a hundred grand to reveal it. Why should I give it away? I’d write a book, but it would only be 5 sentenced long.
'm going to wait until enough people are interested so that when I explain it, I will at least get some credit for it. Once I let it out everyone will be telling the world that it was they who cracked the code. I would at least like to get a little credit. You will know in time[/b]
if I spent 5 minutes in a room with Ken Venturi he would exit that room to tell the world that the code had been cracked. He would understand immediately
If they knew the secret they would swing like Hogan or at least their students would. My swing is the fat persons version of Hogan’s action.
Hmm…credibility? Unless stated otherwise those sentences might as well have written by somebody at TMZ…
That and he’s more or less changed his tune in regards to the ‘secret’ over the past 12 months. I know that he’s personally told me that he wanted to create a swing that is a little of Hogan and a little of Moe and that his pre-torqueing of the feet and using ground forces were something he believed that both Hogan and Moe did. Mainly because Moe kept telling him that he ‘swings into his feet’ and plays ‘into the course’ and it took awhile to figure out what Moe meant by that. Thus he got the nickname of ‘Moegan.’
I was never interested in whether or not Mike knew Hogan’s alleged ‘secret.’ I was more interested in how a guy like Mike had such an incredibly sound, but dynamic golf swing and could flat out stripe the ball AND make a sound of compression with the golf ball that I don’t hear very often. When watching his videos he talked about some things in the golf swing that made a lot of sense and/or I had never heard before and when I tried them, they worked pretty well for me. That just piqued my interest even more in his teachings, philosophies and analysis of the golf swing.
3JACK
I haven’t read thru all of this thread.
I’m reading Mike’s book and a lot of it all makes sense to me. Lag seems to think Mike knows what he is talking about. So I really don’t care about the technical debate…if it works for me then I’ll do it.
Besides, the non instructional aspects of the book are a bloody good read ay…
Well look who’s member #188.
Welcome Sevam1!
Welcome Sevam! Glad to have you here.
Mike and I had a nice chat yesterday to catch up on things…
He has some interesting projects coming up (I won’t give it away) but has to do with early history of golf and the games evolution.
Working the golf swing with strong active hands, and dynamic ground pressures puts us in the same boat…
Why is there controversy about ground forces… Ground forces are nothing new or any real secret…
In 1991 there was a feature article in the US golf digest about ground forces and how they work and apply in a golfswing…
Our team has researched ground forces for 20 years using force/pressure plates in golf, tennis, Major league baseball and a long list of sports…
We have mountains of research and data on ground forces and how they apply to human motion in sport and golf…
There is a distinct similar ground force pattern which all the top athletes generate and have in common in golf, tennis and baseball …
The only way you know if you are producing the right ground force patterns or what your ground force patterns are you have to measure them using force and pressure plates…
The underlying issues are every athlete is different and has different ground force issues …There’s no one genric one size fits all exercise suits everyone to teach them to create the right ground forces…
There are times where you get an athlete which has similar ground force issue and this is great you can give them an exercise which will train them to produce the right ground forces… although sometimes this particular exercise doesn’t work for them either…
The journey never ends every week we are researching and testing more and more training techniques and exercises to suit each individual athlete to train their body to produce the right ground forces…
There is a scientific theory behind ground forces although now the journey is find more ways to teach athletes how to do this in practice…
I’ve never read Mike’s theory on ground forces or how he trains people how to produce ground forces…although I think it’s great he is getting word out about ground forces and people are now starting to speak about this topic more… this is a step in the right direction …
Been out of pocket for a while. I have a question about Mike’s screwing in the right foot. Have had MCL issues in my right knee for a pretty long while, and really wonder about the torque effect Mike’s approach has on the knee. Got a chiropracter who plays to a two or three, and is also one of those very able people who delves very deeply into all things about the body. He goes to tons of different conferences, and is up on all the state of the art tools and techniques. I asked him about both Mike’s and Lag’s ground force approaches. He said Lag’s does nothing counter to the knee joint, but that Mike’s torque on the knee could be a trouble maker. Anyone here with joint knowledge have anything to add?
Flop
Flopshot,
Ground forces are something we don’t physically or consicously try to apply in our golfswing…
Ground forces are created by producing certain movement patterns… By trying to screw your feet etc isn’t how we achieveto produce the right ground forces…
Every athlete we have trained all have different sensations of feeling ground forces… Although when you test them they produce similar ground force patterns… Everyone has a different sensations and feeling ground forces… although they aren’t physically or consicously trying to apply ground forces… They feeland sense ground forces… They achieve ground forces by training their body to produce certain movement patterns which produce ground forces naturally…
We have researched and tested potential injury for hip joint centres and knee joints… What was found is due to poor movement patterns which results in poor ground forces is when injuries occur… If your producing the right movement patterns from the ground up… there is no force put on knee joints or hip joint centres…
There is a certain way the human body is designed to move anatomically and dynamically in motion… To be honest you can’t identify if your producing the right or wrong ground forces and movement patterns with out testing using force/ pressure plates and biomechanics…
If you are having knee issues from playing golf an educated guess is you have movement patterns issues… This isn’t a mechanical issue…
We are talking about how your body is moving dynamically to produce speed (kinetic link)… This is the DNA of how your body naturally moves to create speed and power… If you are having knee issues in golf …these issues would arise if your were playing tennis or Baseball… Due to the fact our body uses the same power production process in tennis, baseball etc…
How long have you had knee issues for ? does golf irritate your knee?
If you are having knee issues from playing golf an educated guess is you have movement patterns issues… This isn’t a mechanical issue…
It sure as hell can be a mechanical issue when the object you’re hitting works totally against everything you’re trying to do properly with a pivot driven golf swing. I thought we were trying to think 3 dimensionally. Maybe we need to go 4.
The one thing about Mike’s book is that he really goes more into ground forces than the ‘pre-torqueing’ of the feet. If you remember, he writes about how he stumbled onto that by accident as he was playing a US Open qualifier (on a great course BTW) and felt the sensation by trying to emulate what Lee Trevino said once at a clinic Mike attended and also noticing something about Trevino’s feet when watching him hit balls.
I’ve read Mike say somewhere, probably in that old GolfWRX thread that basically the point he’s not trying to stress is ‘pre-torquing’ the feet, but to get ‘lower into the ground’ and to make your body ‘smaller’ coming into impact. I think the pre-torque of the feet was the way that Mike found to work for him and then he started to believe that Hogan did the same thing and that was Hogan’s ‘secret’, although he has changed his tune to a slight degree on that.
I was reading a post from a friend and PGA Pro named John Graham and he was talking about how he tried some metal spikes the other day and saw a noticeable improvement in clubhead speed. So whether you ‘pre-torque’ the feet or not, the key concepts in my mind when it comes to ‘ground forces’ is finding a way to grip and to ‘push off’ the ground to help create a more effective pivot. Pre-torquing the feet is just one way to do it.
Like I’ve said in this thread, when I think of 3 prominent ‘ground forces’ instructors I think of Sevam1, Sean Foley and Shawn Clement. All Canadians and I believe they probably got this idea from playing hockey because if you have ever played ice hockey, you start to understand how hard it is to get real power behind a slap shot unless you have some stability with the feet and the ice.
Another teacher who stresses ground forces is S&T ‘co-inventor’ Mike Bennett whose S&T model became popular when he taught it to long time friend and fellow central NY’er Tom Scherrer. Scherrer was an excellent HS ice hockey player as well.
Anyway, don’t get so consumed by the pre-torqueing and just understand that the pre-torqueing is more of a means to an end. I can still not properly use ground forces and pre-torque the feet. In fact, I still struggle with it today. 
3JACK
We are very intensive here regarding ground pressures, and how to effectively train and utilize them. Anyone into module #2 I’m sure can attest.
I was aware of this stuff back in the 1980’s and it certainly was nothing new back then either. As the gear gets lighter, we see less and less good footwork on tour, and ball striking is suffering because of it.
Mac O’Grady was one of the first with his out of the ground up through the ass crack thrust moveon using the ground. Hogan increased his first tilt, left side getting lower before he regained his flexion in his right knee, something that O’grady is into
That doesn’t make sense… Anway how does geometry have an impact on how your body moves… It’s the other way around most people produce poor geometry from creating poor movement patterns…
How can geometry have an impact on some one’s knee … geometry has no impact in how your body naturally moves to create speed and motion…
Pivot driven golfswing… define pivot… do you mean hips or upper body or the whole body moving as one…
Isn’t all good golf swing their body produces the power to create the power generation process… Couldn’t you safley say every good golfer is a pivot driven golfswing… what ever that means…
Pivot what a shocking word to describe the body… no wonder people get lost and confused when pivot is mention… there are seperate body segments when people speak about pivot which segment are they reffering too…
Can someone explain the theory on ground forces, what are the ground forces? … And how ground forces work and apply in the golf swing???
I’m sure it doesn’t make sense, so everybody start beating that dead horse. I’m not the one getting paid here.