Can you tell us a bit about Moe’s grip, and how it evolved over the years. I think he changed between overlap and 10 finger. With Moe’s hands set high, I would think he would have had to lay the shaft more diagonally through the palms than players swinging on flatter planes would. I think Moe also built up his grips quite a bit from what I remember. Did he talk to you about the reasoning for doing this? Certainly a bigger grip gives more surface area for the skin to connect to, and also takes a bigger movement to rotate the clubface a comparative amount.
Knudson I know preferred very firm grips so he could feel the shaft or as he said “the feel of steel”
Hello John lag Erickson
The Real Moe Norman from the 50’s onward used the vardon or overlap grip. That was his grip of choice when he won all his tournaments and set many course records. Even when Moe was doing clinics and got involved with Natural golf he would use the ten finger grip to please them. Once his clinics were done he would head to Florida and change back to the vardon grip immediately. Lawson Mitchell witnessed this every year. Moe’s official grip and the grip he would use was known as the greatest striker of the golf ball in the entire world was the vardon grip,
The left hand grip was more in the palm underneath the heel pad from the thickness of the grips that also provided feel in the fingers.
Moe used 5 to 6 layers of tape and the reason for this was to reduce his hand action. Moe wanted the golf club to release on it’s own accord from the way he moved. He wanted the right hand and arm under the left, the bigger grips helped to retain the right hand and finally squared up through impact. The Real Moe Norman wanted passive hands during the golf swing the same as George knudson. George had slim grips and wanted to feel the steel and would release more at the ball while Moe would release way beyond the ball with a squarer club face then George.
Thank you
Greg
The Real Moe Norman
Authors: Greg Lavern and Lawson Mitchell
Your absolutely right on lag. The real important stuff in The Real Moe Norman’s swing is through the ball and beyond once the vertical drop is made to set this up. I would be glad to hit balls for you whenever i can get down to the States. I am hoping the book does well so i can hit the ball for golfers that believe in Moe’s method and his incredible ball striking ability that will only make them better ball strikers. One thing i can offer when teaching is the ability to demonstrate and explain it.
It is winter right now where i am situated in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia Canada. Sunday we had a break in the weather resulting in a real nice day where the snow melted, acceptable to hit balls. I have not hit any balls since December, the 50 balls i hit or so were all center face hits with straight trajectory. As i said i have never changed from what The Real Moe Norman taught me only polished it as i grow older myself. Here is a picture of myself on the swing series that appears in the book.
Thanks Lag
Greg
The Real Moe Norman
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern therealmoenorman.com
Mike Maves recently did this review of Greg and Lawson’s book. I’ll also be doing a review soon giving more detailed thoughts focusing more on the instruction part of the book.
I would like to thank you for posting the book review on your site of The Real Moe Norman recently done by Mike Maves
of Secrets in the Dirt.
Nice to see your doing a book review shortly on Advanced Ball Strikers with focus on the swing secrets section of the book.
Looking forward to reading your review as many of your patrons I am sure will have great interest in your opinion and insight.
let’s talk a bit about your Martial Arts training and how you applied concepts you learned there to Moe’s approach toward ball striking. We have had a pretty epic martial arts thread here on ABS. Might be helpful to have a read through that and let us know your thoughts on what has been laid down here… and also on the mental side of things.
Moe said stop hitting and hoping and start seeing and believing. Pretty powerful statement if you look into it a bit deeper.
Here are links to a couple of the Martial Arts threads that have been active here at ABS.
Hello John Lag Erickson
and patriots of Advance Ball Strikers.
I have viewed your martial arts links and you have contact with some very knowledgeable people that have related to the golf swing and the various disciplines of the martial arts.
As for myself during the time i practiced and played with The Real Moe Norman he was familiar with the karate chop and did achieve his yellow belt in his younger years as a young lad growing up in kitchener Ontario Canada. In the book The Real Moe Norman I used the karate chop to demonstrate the open handed strike that was similar to holding a tray at pre-impact. The leg action is comparable to the way the legs move in The Real Moe Norman’s leg action. The stance is wide and the left knee is leading while the right leg , knee and ankle is going down. The martial arts exercises i made available in the book are basic warm-ups that are very effective to develop flexibility into the golf swing. I still do these exercises at 55 years of age everyday and find them more effective than working out at the gym with machines, where I prefer the street. These warm ups are easy to do for the average golfer and greater flexibility will be achieved in the golf swing. I have never had a sore muscle when combining the martial arts and the golf swing The Real Moe Norman taught me to strike the golf ball.
My background consists of a couple of disciplines. I first took kempo karate and achieved a orange belt and later in my golf career i decided to continue with another style. When i moved to Halifax i started at white belt and achieved my black belt during 2002 in Chito Ryu that took five years of training under 5th degree, Sensi Smooke. I am very familar with all the terminology used in your martial arts thread and respect highly the way the golf swing can be related to martial arts. The style i studied is a combination of Korean Tae kwon do, Okinawan Chito Ryu and Chinese Kung fu.
The same philosophy is applied to both golf and the martial arts. The mind and body works together as one. This starts from the chi with the proper breathing. You will utilize your chi located under the naval and breath through the nose and exhale when making a strike. The power is increased and the control is also in reserve to stop the strike anytime on a dime. The same is in golf where you are always in control and never let the golf ball have control, you control the golf ball. The breathing when striking the golf ball starts from the chi and you breath through the nose and exhale into the strike. This is the starting point of having the mind and body work together as one. The big step is incorporating focus and visualization. Meditation in martial arts clears the mind to make the mind empty and the focus on your target when striking with a technique that will insure you hit your mark. As we focus on a target when striking the golf ball the visualization takes place in the mind to view the golf shot in flight before it is struck. Some call it the minds eye.
Balance in golf and martial arts are similar where the weight is on the heels. The stances are wide for a solid foundation so you are solid as a rock. Moe displays this idealism with his wide stance and George knudson another great ball striker did the same. Both believed in the wider stance and the solid foundation as the karate masters teach to their students. Balance is control, when you are in balance you are centered and have the ability to flow. The movements in the golf swing or the martial art techniques will look smooth since balance with a stable foundation allows a flow to completion.
To answer what The Real Moe Norman said to you, “stop hitting and hoping and start seeing and believing.”
The first part is related to confidence. Let it happen as the golf club releases on its own accord through the proper sequence of motion. When the proper sequence of motion is performed properly you will hit your positions with tempo that makes you flow. Don’t hit and hope and not have a clue where the golf ball in headed, know where the golf ball is headed at your target. You control the golf ball, don’t allow that little white thing control you. In the second part be aware of your surroundings and the situation you view. Believe in yourself and what ever golf swing you have repeat it. Most people are blinded to the truth and live on hope and fear. For Gosh sake, its only a golf ball. LET IT HAPPEN, have a vision at your target, aim and fire without second guessing. The Real Moe Norman had a gut feeling and believed he could win at will, and he did.
That last photo just screams Moe doesn’t it?
It’s interesting how all these things relate. Swinging a heavy stick around your body at high velocity with the intent of a highly precision strike based upon force and acceleration also screams Martial Arts. Although my own formal MA training has been limited in scope, it has been more than compelling. I have been surprised that so little has been written over the years about the brotherhood between the two disciplines. I would not be surprised learn that much has been written more recently over in Korea or Japan since golf has exploded over there. I am not surprised to see so many fine Asian players emerging onto the scene.
Greg, when did you first feel the dantien in the golf swing? Did Moe ever discuss with you striking from the true center, even in a roundabout way?
Hello John Lag Erickson.
I had the photo you speak of put in the book for a reason. It is screaming the similarities between the martial arts and the swing The Real Moe Norman taught me to swing in his own likeness. There is so much that relates to the movements and the way the mind works that can be identified in comparison to the golf swing and the ancient study of martial arts.
To address your questions, first of all dantien refers to the point of body as the center of gravity. The storage center of life force that provides a physical field of energy, your inner strength. Qi a Chinese term know as Chi for those not as familiar as you are.
The Real Moe Norman told me that all his teachings and the development of total muscle memory would come to me when knowledge and the way we move joined together. Yes, the dantien i experienced in the golf swing when i isolated myself to practice amongst nature in a secluded place approximately two years ago when i was able to combine my martial arts training into the golf swing and could understand the similarities through actual practice.
Just to note The Real Moe Norman utilized mass to achieve maximum speed at impact with the proper sequence of motion where he increased the velocity in his swing. A much different approach where purity of technique was paramount compared to the swings of today that are totally distance oriented and demonstrate a lack of consistent ball striking.
The Real Moe Norman did discuss the true center with me and Lawson Mitchell using a globe as an example. The Real Moe Norman used physics and centrifugal force to create the swing plane. Think of the golf swing working as a globe which is illustrated in the book The Real Moe Norman on pages 129 and 130.
I will tell you something that The Real Moe Norman had me doing when i was his young student. He wanted me centered particularly through impact in the batters box as mentioned in the book when Lawson Mitchell and The Real Moe Norman related golf’s batter box to baseball. The Real Moe Norman had me throw my naval at the ball and mentioned Hogan also thought of this technique when practicing that will put you in a great sitting position centered through impact and beyond.
Thank you
Greg Lavern
The Real Moe Norman
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern therealmoenorman.com
John Lag Erickson
Just to touch a little more on striking the golf ball from the true center. The Real Moe Norman inhaled through his nose on the back swing to fill his lungs up and release the air slowing on the downswing into impact. The starting point where you inhale the air is just below the naval or the chi. It becomes similar logic for a person into meditation inhaling the inner world and exhaling outward to the outer world. It becomes important to inhale goodness or positive thoughts from the chi to fill your lungs and exhale out the mouth any badness or negativity to clear the mind. The Real Moe Norman utilized this breathing technique for his timing and tapped into inner source for extra power while still maintaining his fluid motion. We talked about the breathing in the golf swing from time to time and another important reason i gathered from The Real Moe Norman was the importance to relax while striking the golf ball under pressure.
John Lag Erickson
Glad you like the posts and please feel free to contribute to your martial arts thread.
Have not heard from you in a while and i am here to answer your questions or you might be working on the book review
that I hope your member patrons will enjoy on any special insights and book recommendations you may have.
Looking forward to read your book review with a focus on the technical instruction that Lawson Mitchell and myself provided
in The Real Moe Norman.
A bit under the weather earlier last week… but always feel free to post here and we all love to hear Moe stories and insights as I know you knew him better than most anyone.
What was a typical day like from sunrise to bedtime hanging around Moe?
Hello Dthiele,
From: Greg Lavern
The Authors of The Real Moe Norman book, Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern are glad you love the book and appreciate your nice comments. Hope your doing well.
Thank you
Greg
Hello! John Lag Erickson,
When in Toronto Ontario during the summer months in those years i would meet The Real Moe Norman at the Pleasure Park Driving Range around 9:00am to start our day. The Real Moe Norman would drive in to the parking lot with a coke in hand
and we would usually talk for a little on what was going on within the golf circles. It was a little early for me to drink coke so i usually had a juice or a coffee. The Real Moe Norman was very personable to people at the driving range and would always be polite and answer direct if someone asked him something. Usually always cheery and ready to roll. In all the years i spent with The Real Moe Norman i never had a argument or disagreement as we were the very best to each other.
We sometimes would hit balls at the range if there was not many people or if Moe had something on his mind and wanted to show me right away or make me wait until we drove to our destination at the Golf Haven GC. that we would practice and play where The Real Moe Norman was the playing professional. Around 9:30am i would load up my clubs in the trunk of his blue caddy and would head up to the course about a half hour drive north of Toronto. On the way it was listening to golf tapes on the mind and lots of golf swing talk. In those days Moe liked listening to tapes by Paul Bertholy, Bob Toski and Irv Sloch . He was into the mind and the golf swing working as one and how it would help you manage yourself on the golf course for better scores. His favorite tournament player with the greatest mind was Jack the golden bear who he said, " has the greatest mind in golf and in a different league than the rest of his competitors."
When we arrived at the golf club we would grab our clubs and put our shoes on. I would always carry his bowling bag that held 800 or more titilist golf balls to the practice area. It was either hitting the whole bag if we were just practicing or if playing the amount was reduced to 400 balls so we could play nine holes hitting four balls per hole. Our practice sessions was always target oriented and attempted to make our pile of balls that landed as small and tight as possible. Any strays we both would take our wedges and with the left arm knock them close to the others for easy pick up. The nine holes when playing four balls was always fun and educational as we played worst ball that allowed us to hit different shots from different angles to have a variety. You can just imagine how much i learned from the Real Moe Norman since we only played and practiced by ourselves from morning till supper time and sometime longer if we got a later start everyday we could.
The Real Moe Norman gave me all his knowledge and taught me to swing in his own likeness. It was a rare opportunity to have the master at your side for questions and his helpful advise and comments. Of course we became the best of friends for many years and socialized and hung out off the golf course. Our relationship was built around the fact that he could trust me and we were just two hardworking guys trying to reach our full potential and achieve what no one else has. At the time i didn’t know the knowledge Moe gave me would be so important and valuable to the golfing world. He knew and he groomed me slowly building muscle memory with the understanding how the golf swing actually works to hit the ball pure.
On our way home heading back to Toronto we would talk about the days golf and how we could improve or what we can work on to strike the ball even better. The Real Moe Norman trusted my eye as we were working on the same things and he knew that Lawson Mitchell taught me how to teach and explain things as a young professional. In those days we never bothered with video and our knowledge and good eye was our niche of technology.
Sometimes we would eat together when in Canada but usually departed and made our arrangements for the next days golf and practice. If we were down in Florida in the winter time then it was straight to Morrison’s all you could eat for $3.00 and liver and onions and pasta that attracted Moe’s appetite. We would talk golf between mouth fulls and about the world.
After dinner it was always off to the bowling alley as the Real Moe Norman when a young pin setter always enjoyed watching the best bowlers at a young age and continued to do this latter in life. It was a couple of hours to kill each evening with lots of laughs though both of us couldn’t wait till sunrise the next day to hit the golf course again. After bowling Moe would drop me off at the rooming house i was staying at and we would make our arrangements to meet the next day. Who would have thought that this routine would go on for years in Toronto Canada and Ormond Beach Florida for years with memories that will last forever.
Hello John Lag Erickson
You have probably seen this photo in the book The Rel Moe Norman.
Thought your patrons and students would enjoy this.
Thanks
Greg Lavern
The Real Moe Norman
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern www.therealmoenorman
Sorry PS…couldn’t resist, but it’s true.