Moe was 58 I believe when I first met him in 1987. Most people didn’t get to see him until the mid to late 90’s, and there are videos of him hitting balls in the early 2000’s.
As good as Moe was, and he was still impressive into his mid to late 60’s, what I saw of him at 58 was probably only a shadow of what he was doing 20 years earlier.
This is the nice thing about Greg’s perspective, knowing him much earlier than I did… and there are more interesting insights from John Henrick in the interview I did with him last year about Moe back in the 50’s and 60’s.
It is interesting, though not surprising to hear that Moe had little or no compression with that later swing. His younger swing would be a whole different story, I would imagine. There was a clip posted a while ago, maybe in this thread, of Moe when he was younger, and it was just savage. I remember thinking that people are studying the wrong Moe swing. It seems that Greg is talking about that earlier/younger one?
This quote essentially ensures that those were the first and last words I ever read by this Wayne guy… I find it ironic that he claims to be looking at the essence of Moe, yet he uses such superficial observations to discredit him as a person on some level- those kinds of things just irk me in the wrong place…
Bom,
I believe you are 100% correct…while I find the later footage of Moe very interesting, gimme a healthy dose of this action any day of the week. The Mod 2 action here is just phenomenal…it’s hard to see, but watch the intensity and degree to which his left foot moves counterclockwise with the pivot.
Totally agree Bom. I’d read something from this guy many years ago and found him to be way off-base. This quote confirms his ignorance.
It really bothers me when anyone starts to decide what/who is “strange” and who isn’t, as if they’re suddenly the keeper of the benchmarks for all that’s “normal”. I remember reading the Golf Digest article about Moe many years ago and how angry it made me that a bunch of spoiled stick-in-the-mud PGA professionals could be so callous and insensitive to another human being. But then again it didn’t surprise me as so many (not all) of those guys are cut from that same cloth.
Hello John(lag)
From: Greg Lavern
Hitting many golf balls with heavier gear will certainly make the swing flow free and feel lighter. It is like swinging two baseball bats when your on deck and then stepping up to the plate with a single bat.
The muscles are toned and developed with the heavier weighted golf club to achieve muscle memory. The reason that heavy gear is preferred by the great strikers relates to their concentration on purity of technique, not just smashing the ball. These pure hitters of the golf ball believed in mass with the proper sequence of motion to achieve maximum speed at impact.
The body strength increases by hitting your positions with the heavier gear.
George Knudson swung a heavier golf club in warm up that would allow the swing to flow and became strong through the hitting area on his normal golf shots. Paul Bertholy with similar ideals developed a swing pipe raped in leather with lead weight inside for his students to build strength and muscle memory using Ben Hogan as his model to hit similar positions.
The Real Moe Norman was influenced by himself and supported by his head pro Lloyd Tucker and assistant professional Bill Mitchell who was Lawson Mitchell’s father that encouraged Moe on his equipment during his early days at Rockway G.C. in kitchener, Ontario. Moe used the heavy gear during the 50’s when he spent 5 years building his golf swing. Even at a young
age The Real Moe Norman wanted to know where the club head was in the swing and feel the head of the club, the heavy gear made this possible.
Don’t forget back in those days the swing weight of a club was in the D’s and for these players never experienced the light swing weight in the C’s used today by many players. Moe always went to extremes and only knew E3 to E5 that suited his make up and of course like all great strikers had focus on what they were trying to achieve, PURITY OF TECHNIQUE.
I can remember practicing with George Knudson in the late 70’s watching him swing D1 or D2 woods and D4 or D5 forged irons. Not as heavy as The Real Moe Norman’s clubs but certainly heavy compared to what is used by the tour players today.
Myself i have used E3 to E5 since 1974 when Moe started me off. I am 55 now and still swing the same swing weight. My muscles have complete muscle memory and the golf clubs today feel like licorice sticks to me.
Thank You
Greg
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern
The Real Moe Norman
I would suppose Hogan liked his filed leading edge a little sharper when playing some of the Texas courses that he would have experienced with tight hard pan lies in those years.
The Real Moe Norman had high hands in his set-up that leveled the toe and heel and the grinding of the leading edge squared the face naturally.
Eagle your right about The Real Moe Norman, who had excellent posture. He maintained his spine angle extremely well when set-up to the ball. He stuck his ass out where his weight was directed to his heels. Most people thought he looked funny though his basics and foundation was solid as a rock.
Tamoka Oaks was the home of many Canadian Professionals during the winter months in the 6O’s and 70’s. Lawson Mitchell the other author of the book The Real Moe Norman was the assistant professional at Tamoka Oaks in the 60’s and during the early 70’s became the head professional. This was the golf course where The Real Moe Norman hung his hat for years. Lawson still in the Daytona area is at the club at Indigo and teaches everyday. The Real Moe Norman every year as soon as he arrived would have Lawson Mitchell take a look at him.
Thank you
Greg
Authors: The Real Moe Norman
Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern
I thought i might address your posting as you asked some good questions and i feel they deserve a response.
The Real Moe Norman has hit the golf ball 340 yards down wind on a northern golf course where the air is not as thin as some areas in the United States where he would gain much more distance. Make no mistake, when Moe strikes a driver with his incredible flight it looks like the golf ball is going 400 yards. Quite possible with the right conditions down wind and a hard pan golf course we might have been calling you Hugh Hefner.
One of the reasons the best players in the world stop hitting their own golf balls is to watch The Real Moe Norman hit the driver with his incredible flight that is straight and pure.
The Real Moe Norman was the hardest worker that ever played the game and master of the golf swing at a level beyond the rest. As a ball striker he knew how to put the golf club head on the ball with a square club face that would repeat. When you have a great hitter of the golf ball like Ben Hogan say " Moe Norman is the only one i would walk across the street to watch," or Lee Trevino stating, " Moe is fantastic and a genius at the game of golf," that says it all.
Moe hit the ball extremely well at the Masters hitting 15 greens and as many fairways. It was his putting that let him down as he had some trouble adapting to the greens. In your statements your talking about two completely different areas of the game, ball striking and scoring. In the Real Moe Norman’s defense, just before the Masters he was setting pins in a bowling alley during the cold Canadian winter and probably never hit a ball in three or four months. Not really a level playing field compared to the advantages the other competitors had of hitting balls all year round. There is no doubt that Moe has a golf swing that stands the test of time and swing under pressure 365 days of the year. The Real Moe Norman knows one fairway straight down the middle while many tour stars today seem to view different fairways for some reason.
I suggest you purchase the book The Real Moe Norman and you will see for yourself the golf swing this great ball striker had from a different era. The way you have experienced Moe in the 90’s and beyond was a much shorter golf swing due to his old age and lack of flexibility . The other promoters of Moe during his later years made their own observations and not even close to what he really did. As for myself since you asked, I got all my knowledge from the horses mouth and he taught me in his own likeness that you will be able to view in the book The Real Moe Norman.
There has not been a tour player that has used Moe’s set- up but capitalized on the moves in his swing. Lee Trevino was probably the closest though Moe was much longer down the line. All great ball strikers have certain similarities though Moe had the squarest club face and even Lee himself stated, “Moe has me beat by a mile.”
Most tour players have learned the conventional or traditional swing of twisting and turning to release the golf club and won’t change since the world class teachers are the ones that teach this style of swing to today’s tour players.
If these well marketed world class teachers truly understood, then their concentration would be more on purity of technique rather than teaching to slash at the golf ball for distance that has been much different then the all-time great strikers approached the game.
The Real Moe Norman was never wrong about his swing thoughts as you don’t become the world’s greatest striker of the golf ball in the entire world with your professional competitors recognition and praise by being wrong. The Real Moe Norman would have said , " If i could have changed one thing it would have been to work smarter not harder."
Hello John (Lag) Erickson
From: Greg Lavern
I appreciate your thread and your honesty.
Moe was never crazy but was an a genius with a few social disorders. A true friend and a entirely different
person if you were in his inner circle. He had respect for you and is why he opened up to you while playing
the Canadian tour on questions you asked him. Moe was in his comfort zone with people that he chose to be around. The many misconceptions over the years portrayed of the man wrongly. I believe the book clears many of those misconceptions up and allows the golfer to say here is the proof and this is The Real Moe Norman.
To elaborate on the lesson Moe had with Sam Snead. There is not that much to tell except Sam Snead told Moe something while Snead was watching Moe hit balls on the range at the Masters. Moe had great respect for Snead and always spoke of him as a great natural swinger. Moe had respect from the greats as they all new what his golf swing displayed greatness and were amazed at how pure he struck the golf ball. That would include, Snead, Hogan and Venturi who labeled him with the name pipeline Moe. In those days there was no video and players helped each other with the eye as their means to observe each other.
The Real Moe Norman at a young age was so excited getting a lesson from Sam Snead one of the dominate tour winners in that era that he hit balls till his hands were raw. There is no question Moe went to extremes out of excitement and playing the Masters was not his focus on this particular day. Moe’s preparation should have been disciplined to only hit a certain amount of balls in preparation for the Masters tournament though he was young and full of talent and was use to hitting a thousand balls at will. The bottom line his thumb and hands were raw and could not hold on to the club and would not heal that quickly for the following days play. The Real Moe Norman attempted to play the next round but had to quit halfway.
Thank You Lag
Greg
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern
The Real Moe Norman
I am glad you love to practice and realize the importance of building a repetitive golf swing. The whole idea is to repeat the same action and practice the things that are right to produce this achievement.
The Real Moe Norman would hit his first ball perfect without a warm up. Moe has hit so many balls working hard at what he loved to do and developed muscle memory. He would usually practice the day before a tournament and was ready and confident.
His routine was to hit some balls to stay loose and hit a few putts to be ready when called to tee off in a tournament.
Moe would like to talk with a coke in his hand when doing a clinic and liked to pleased the crowd since he had something the people all wanted. Moe was his own man with a colorful personality and entertaining. When Moe started hitting balls it was a joy to watch him work. He could do what he said and knew he was going to hit it good everyday he got up in the morning. The Real Moe Norman liked his 7 iron to warm up with that he would hit it 145 yards without force.
Thanks
Greg
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern
The Real Moe Norman
I hear you, Robbo!
What’s also funny is that looking at the corruption/negligence that’s been exposed in the banking industry over the last few years, Moe actually starts to look like an even bigger genius, and not just a ball striking one.
Egale and Bom
From:Greg Lavern
A little off topic other then Moe choosing to bury his money.
Moe did not believe in banks because of the ridiculous unnecessary service charges that were automatic even if you did not use the services. It was a hassle to get the money out of the bank when you needed it for an emergency. Moe would say, “What gives the bank the right to tell me what to do with my money when i don’t owe them anything.” The amount of interest the bank paid for a savings account was nothing of substantial significance. I guess burying money under the ground eliminated any control the bank had on Moe and he refused to be controlled like the rest of the population. During my time with the Real Moe Norman he did not believe in depositing any of his money in the bank and felt it was safer in the ground because he was the only one that new where it was.
Golf teachers have been trying to figure out for the last 50 years just what The Real Moe Norman actually did in his golf swing, and have based their theory on opinions and observations. Mr. Wayne is in that category and would be drawing lines for the next 50 years and still would not have a clue. To make the comments he did about Moe clearly demonstrates Mr. Wayne is weak in the area of professionalism. He only could dream of hitting the golf ball like The Real Moe Norman day in and day out.
In short this fellow knows very little about The Real Moe Norman’s golf swing and had to restore to attacking the man to cover up his lack of knowledge.
Thanks
Greg
The Real Moe Norman
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern
well said PureSpice…observations without first hand knowledge just sets people up to be knocked down a peg when push comes to shove…
The golf swing can be observed all it wants…but that isn’t going to get it done
Glad you are contributing
Anyone attacking Moe’s technique simply either didn’t see Moe strike the ball or they are just plain making uneducated comments.
I look forward Greg, to watching you hit balls someday, and seeing the whole package put into motion. Like many swing theories and techniques,
my thought is Moe’s approach is a proven method that really is a complete package deal. All the details must be in order, especially the way he
had his gear set up. If you want to hit the ball like Moe, do as Moe did, and don’t leave stones unturned.
These other guys trying to “do Moe”, I can see from videos posted, are simply not getting it. Most of them lack Moe’s post impact pivot thrust. Anyone
can copy the set up and backswing, but we all know… or should know… we don’t hit the ball on the backswing.
Moe would always say…“I hit through the ball, not at the ball”
I don’t think I have seen many people hit through it with the pivot as effectively as Moe did… and I only say the 57 year old version of Moe in person.
