Great insights there Greg… much appreciated.
Moe talked about the wedge being the most important club in the bag. This because the wedge takes responsibility for 100 yards worth of yardages. Did my have any strong opinions about the move into 3 wedges as so many guys do now? I think some guys have gone to even 4 or 5 wedges.
Moe may have started in the early days when 16 clubs were allowed. 4 persimmons, 1 iron through PW … a SW and putter.
Did Moe talk at all to you about this?
I don’t think Moe used yardage books, but still had great distance control… did you teach you anything about the mind and how to train it to see and feel the distance control aspect of the game?
Hello John Lag Erickson
Students and Patrons
From: Greg Lavern
Actually The Real Moe Norman told me, " you have to love three clubs, your driver, wedge and putter as your best friends."
Though the game is from a 100 yards in where you score. The wedge can produce many different shots and the major club that will get you closest to the hole which is so important.
The Real Moe Norman used two wedges, a standard pitching wedge used for all shots and never hit a sand wedge off the fairway since he could hit the pitching wedge better than most could hit the sand wedge. The other wedge was his Sandy Andy later called the History Stick that was used in the bunkers and for hitting out of long rough around the green only.
I met The Real Moe Norman in 1974 when 14 clubs were only allowed. The clubs in Moe’s bag consisted of:
putter
pitching wedge
Sandy Andy
2-9 forged irons(soft blades)
Driver, 3 wood, 4 wood (persimmon)
In the late 40’s and 50’s when the 16 clubs were allowed Moe would have the same line-up adding a 1 iron and a extra Driver in case the persimmon cracked and would not have to tee off with a fairway wood. Moe loved hitting the driver, his wedge was next and the putter he knew the its importance but liked it the least.
The Real Moe Norman never used a yardage book and knew how far he hit each club from practicing so much. He knew exactly how far it was to the flag through sight as he played target golf. I can remember in a tournament Moe was given a yardage book and put it in his back pocket and never took it out.
The mind was related to distance control with a few different thoughts he encouraged me to think of. Always aim over top of the flag stick not to the green unless you had to play the percentages, your distance control would then be to the center of the green. Always take conditions into consideration on club selection to hit it the distance the eyes signal to the mind. When hitting a 7 iron you hit 145 yards, hit it and don’t second guessing as the first club selection is usually the right one. To control the height of the golf ball it is done through visualization of having a picture of the shot before you hit it and it will go that height with the proper ball position what the shot requires. This is one of the reasons The Real Moe Norman could hit the pitching wedge the height of a sand wedge while still maintaining his normal blade angle with a pitching wedge without opening the blade up to achieve the height on a shot that demanded height over a bunker.
Thank You
Greg
The Real Moe Norman
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern
I didn’t get the feeling Moe had any kind of pre shot routine. It just seemed to be all instinct from the moment he decided what shot to hit, and I’m guessing he knew this even before he got to the ball. I don’t think I have ever seen anyone take less time to hit a golf shot. Moe hated slow play… and Moe must have hated riding in carts. I would think he could play an entire round in 2 1/2 or even 2 hours walking.
Greg, do you think Moe’s quick artillery firing approach evolved from having such masterful technique or did this approach help him find what was really him in such an automatic rapid fire way?
The Real Moe Norman new exactly what he wanted to do before striking the golf ball. He believed to stay moving in the swing once his mind was made up. It was a different approach then the majority of players that have ten things or so going through their head, hoping good shots would be hit rather than knowing.
The Real Moe Norman approached his set-up from the side and pointed the top of his left shoulder to the target while spreading his feet more than shoulder width apart. There were two consistent waggles to stay loose before he pulled the trigger.
His pre-shot routine started about 30yards before approaching his next shot and visualization started while walking to hit his next shot. When Visualization started it continued even while watching the ball was in flight till it landed.
It was clear Moe hated slow play. He was certainly one of the fastest players in the world. I can remember he told me that Doug Ford and himself teed off in the Canadian Open playing 18 holes in two and one half hours. This particular twosome was put off to speed up the field. Both players were done their 18holes of in tournament play at the same time as the group behind them was finishing the ninth hole.
To walk fast, eat fast, talk fast and reacting quickly to a statement if he did not like it with a fast direct answer was truly the actions of The Real Moe Norman as normal reactions. When in his comfort zone when we hung out together he would relax more and was never in a rush. He did most things fast that was just part of his make-up. On the other hand he would drive his car slow just below the speed limit.
The Real Moe Norman did not want indecision, and often said, “bad thoughts bad shots.” He knew exactly what he was going to do and proceeded, making him look quick in his golf swing at the things he did in social life.
When we played in Canada and the United States we always played and carried our bags. Moe never wanted to put it on a cart as he wanted his clubs close to him. If there was a cart he might put his bag on the cart on a friendly round but would always walk. If he rode in a cart it was the years after he got involved with Natural Golf doing clinics and to accommodate their requests. Never during the era i knew him.
Quick artillery of firing was from his masterful repeating swing that was fully developed with total muscle memory and it could be said, he naturally did most things fast anyway. It must be understood that The Real Moe Norman’s swing flowed beautifully. He didn’t waste time that labeled him quick when hitting the golf ball when actually one of the most consistent swings from the takeaway to finish during the time The Moe Real Norman was winning many tournaments and setting course records certainly in a heartbeat and did it with ease.
Thanks
Greg
The Real Moe Norman
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern therealmoenorman
Greg,
You may have covered this already, forgive me if you have.
I was thumbing through your book the other night and noticed something on page 126, photo D…Moe at impact. It appears his lower back is slightly rounded, or convex at impact. Do you agree, or am I misreading this? Did he have strong feelings about this, and ever discuss this with you?
Also, the next photo(E), shows him post impact, with no pivot stall…did he ever comment on this, and the fact that many golfers either can’t or don’t do this. Did Moe or you have to “work” at it, train it…and if so, what did you do?
thanks/eagle
Eagle
The plane of the Real Moe Norman’s golf swing was mentioned in the book but your question i can elaborate on for you.
First of all when you set up make sure your right arm is lower than your extended left or you will be out of positon when you reach impact. You want to return the club to the position you started from with right arm lower then the left.
Moe’s back is rounded on page 126 D as he has dropped the club on a entirely different plane and stays low and long with total left side dominance. The right side is along for the ride that releases on its own accord. That is why you see The Real Moe Norman’s back rounded. The release occurs beyond the ball as the rotation of the shoulders take place while staying centerized in the batters box. Both The Real Moe Norman, Lee Trevino andmy self do this since we are much lower through the hitting area than other players.
There is no such thing as a single plane golf swing. Foolishness and artifical. The golf club of the Real Moe Norman’s goes back on a single plane only on the backswing, then dropped on a entirely different plane during transition that allows him to become lower through the ball. The Real Moe Norman performs the vertical drop as indicated and explained in the book, certainly not on a single plane. It is a different plane and a lower plane which might also explain the roundness of Moe’s back coming into impact. The club is returned on its original plane as the right shoulder works under the chin and the more leveler shoulder rotation would follow if there was a frame F on page 126. This is the way we moved through the ball with a concentration on purity of technique rather than being high through the ball the way golfers are taught today. If you notice Moe’s head has dropped lower from C frame to D frame.
There was lots of practice for repitition, I believed this was the proper way to move through a golf for achievement of keeping the blade square through impact as long as possible. To be low and long through the ball. After all i had the BEST teaching me that really knew, No guessing. The Real Moe Norman.
Eagle hope this is helpful.
Thanks Greg
The Real Moe Norman
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern therealmoenorman.com
To swing a club properly, either hitting or swinging, you have to initiate with the lower body.
In doing so, Greg is correct, the plane shallows from the drop, it has to… and you want it to.
John Lag Erickson,
From Greg Lavern
Your pictures clearly show how much The Real Moe Norman’s head drops. Truly a combination of leg drive and vertical drop forming a superb position to strike the golf ball low and long with a square club face down the line.
I mentioned the single plane golf swing that has been promoted around Moe that is totally wrong when taking in consideration his entire swing. Not just to shoulder high," you dont hit the golf ball with your backswing," says the Real Moe Norman. Even as a older man Moe still made his vertical drop to a different plane even without the flexiblity from his younger years.
The single plane golf swing only shows that Moe took the club on the same plane on the backswing because of his high hand positon at address compared to more conventional golfer that starts with their hands lower. The single plane swing ends on the backswing when it comes to The Real Moe Norman. His golf club was dropped on a entirely different plane and then returned to his original plane through impact allowing left side clearance and shoulder rotation to continue on plane. The promoters of the single plane golf swing have utilized his takeaway and nothing more. The Real Moe Norman dropped it on a entirely different plane so there are no misconceptions that has been promoted over the years.
Boy isn’t that the truth. It angers me to see Moe’s action promoted so incorrectly by some of the people trying to capitalize on Moe’s legacy. I really appreciate you Greg, setting it straight and teaching Moe’s action correctly. If there is thing I learned from watching Moe, it was how vicious he was with his pivot rotation post impact. His left side pull going through it was unmatched. Epic really.
You are certainly an asset to the forum–thanks for sharing your insights and experiences…
Do you think it is possible to setup low and stay low? I tend to setup with a strong axis tilt which I maintain well past impact. Interestingly, I think that, since I don’t drop, I tend to have a bit of an inside-out swing path and get a hair steeper on the downswing which is still very much striking from the inside relative to the target line…
You can have a flat plane rather then upright. The Real Moe Norman and myself are more upright that reflects the way we
set-up to the golf ball at address. Our right hip goes upward our drop is more pronounced during transition. You can stay low going back and strive to stay low through impact with a good leg drive that will result in a certain amount of drop. However, I would encourage you keep your chin up and dont have it burried in you chest. You will not be restricted and will have more freedom with more rotation on the backswing. It is good you are maintaining your spine angle. You have probably heard the golfswing is inside to inside where i will go a step further. The club works to the inside on the backswing then returns to square with continuation back to the inside after release and the shoulder rotation takes place. Therefore the golfswing actually is inside to square to inside. If you are setting up with lower posture striving to stay low through the ball you must concentrate on staying in the batters box to eliminate any lifting. Lags Module 3 will explain your posture and tilts as lipout pointed out to you.
I hope this helps and Lag’s module 3 should answer your concerns.
The video of Lorena Ochoa demonstrates how she positions the club head behind the ball. Closer to the ball with the irons and further back with the driver. Hogan also did this in his younger years though not as pronouced as The Real Moe Norman or myself . We are approximately 6 to 8 inches with the irons and 12 to 14 inches with the driver that I only encourage if you have good eye hand coordination. Lorena Ochoa minimizes her positioning of the clubhead behind the ball that is comfortable for her conventional swing. This shows that setting up with the clubhead behind the ball can be achieved and utilized in the conventional golf swing.
It is clear one of the top ladies players in the world understands the advantages of The Real Moe Norman’s rational for placement of the clubhead. The advantages are mentioned in The Real Moe Norman book. You can’t take the club outside on the backswing and the club will work to the inside. You are already into your backswing with a head start. The club stays as low as possible on the backswing as you can’t get any lower. The head sets behind the ball that helps you stay longer through impact.
The Real Moe Norman book is available in soft cover black and white and a special collectors edition all in color at www.therealnorman.com
Thanks
Greg Lavern
The Real Moe Norman
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern www.therealmoenorman
Let’s talk a bit about Moe’s grip…
I know he changed from the Vardon to 10 finger… any thoughts on why or how this affected his swing and ball striking.
I remember Moe having a huge callus on his left hand… it really was something other worldly.
Hello Lag, Hope your doing well.
From: Greg Lavern
The Real Moe Norman always used the vardon or overlap grip when i met him in 1974 during the many years i was taught by him. He changed over to the ten finger grip for show to promote Natural golf’s method of teaching during the early nineties when doing a clinic for Natural Golf. When ever he headed south after the summer or doing a clinic in Canada he would change back to the vardon girp when visiting Lawson Mitchell the club professional at Tomoka Oaks G.C. in Ormond Beach. When The Real Moe Norman was demonstrating with the ten finger grip he did not hit the ball as consistant and many more stray shots surfaced than his normal play. Even playing a round of golf he would be short or long and not the same distance control as with his normal vardon grip. His timing was affected since his right hand became much more active rather then along for the ride that would normally release on its own accord with a much later release. The Real Moe Norman found his hands were more unified with the vardon grip. All his course records and tournament wins happened when using the vardon.
The Real Moe Norman developed a callus on his left hand that covered the meaty area or right corner. I remember he use to take a razor blade he carried around to cut and dead skin off so none would grow over. It was a pure black huge golf ball size callus that tatooed him for life from the thousands of balls he hit that was certainly noticeable. The Real Moe Norman did not where a glove and hands bled many times. I do not where a glove either and my hands bled lots but never developed the incredible callus that The Real Moe Norman displayed. After all the club was gripped like a vice trying to draw blood.
Thanks you
Greg
The Real Moe Norman
Authors: Lawson Mitchell and Greg Lavern www.therealmoenorman.com
To Lag John Erickson
From: Greg Lavern
The Real Moe Norman’s grip pressure was in the two middle fingers of his right hand where the thumb layed to the left side of the grip. He did not want the thumb on top that may control the golf club artificially. The right hand was gripped in the fingers where he held it firm and certainly not like a bird. His grips were built up with 5 to 6 layers of tape that put the golf grip into the palm of the right hand. The right hand was along for the ride and would hit on its own accord without forced effort since his dominate left hand and arm were always leading. His left hand was like a vice where he would try to draw blood with his last three fingers of the left hand. The Real Moe Norman believed in holding on to the golf club with firm right hand grip pressure that was still much lighter than his viced left hand grip. There was unity in the hands though the wrists were soft.
Thank you
Greg
The Real Moe Norman
Authors Greg Lavern and Lawson Mitchell www.therealmoenorman.com
