Chris,
Thanks very much for sharing your posts and insights. However, I am still very slow on the uptake in regards to your use of the terms “convex” and “concave”. Can you try to explain more? Is convex the same as swinging left with the hands, and concave the same as dumping, or letting the hands give into centrifugal force and fly out towards the target line?
Thanks!
No problem eagle…
Here is a sample of a straight shot. From all the footage we have, it is pretty hard to
do assumptions, where the ball is going and with what ballflight. Luckily they had in the past
ball shaggers and the player looks before his shot and after his shot to his target (what a great way to practice target oriented)… so we can see the starting direction of the ball and the target. The best footage was the Shell´s Match, because the comentator said what ballflight he saw.
In this foto i added a blue straight line from start of the downswing to the release point handpath.
Convex the apex would be over the blue line and in concave the apex is under the blue line.
Now go back to page 14 and look at the pictures and imagine a blue line from start of the handpath to the release point.
You will see convex and concave and sometimes a straight handpath.
If you look to any player who Draws the ball, you will always see a concave handpath even so far that
they swing the handpath inside out for what ever reason.
My point was that you could play a Draw without swinging your handpath inside - out.
From release point on - the hands are going with the pivot left - even for a Draw.
In my own micro golf world it is exciting to know the why and the how…
If you change your handpath - you actually change the sweetspot plane. I am not talking about
20 degree changes…The left arm parallel to the ground would be more inside or shifted out.# If you already play inline (inside to inside) you need only minor changes to
alter the plane and the ballflight. That is really advanced stuff - because you change the handpath
thru the shifting of different COG´s - Futhermore you could change trajectory with changing your COG´s.
Mr. Hogan created a perfect MACHINE to play every shot. My interest is just how he did it.
BTW - that is just my personal opinion and experience.
Chris
Thanks Chris.
So, to make sure I understand what you are saying…
concave =below the blue line(hands lower)= draw
convex = above blue line(hands higher)= fade
With BOTH concave and convex, the hands go left, the difference is the height of the hands in comparison to the blue line( swing path from the top of the swing to the release point)
Do you think he made these small variations as a result of different visualizations, or preshot feel…or as a result of something else?
Thank you lag… Schlee on knee flex:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sVSafTOA0o[/youtube]
Schlee´s best quote is: “Garbage in, garbage out” When you feed your subconcious with golf
garbage, that´s what you get back.
Chris
Yes and No - the handpath is the vapor trail what happened. Yes the hands go always left.
Mr. Hogan had the best sequencing of body movements ever.
To play a Fade or Draw he sequenced his downswing different - sure it helped to align different at setup.
IMOP when and how much the lower or upper body turns or goes laterally changes everything. That is why
all his swings look equal - his downswing was to fast to see what he did and his backswing was almost the same.
For example if you only push your lower body laterally to the target without falling back = look what happens.
If you turn your shoulders over a stable lower body = look what happens. In the end it is all about the correct sequencing of different body parts. You could use this knowledge to play different shots…What we see, are still vapor trails.
Chris
That’s really good…do you have any more clips?
Recently I converted the video “Maximum Golf” for my IPhone…
One more…because it fits to this thread.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHsndj17z-E[/youtube]
Chris
I’ve never seen Schlee’s swing before. I love his leg and footwork. He’s extremely dynamic and pure.
I agree,
it really is “the” world class move. That layoff into the slot at transition.
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Chris, I’m a long time Schlee fan. I purchased the “Maximum Golf” manual in the early '80’s (?). It’s basically worn out.
Is there any way you could post Schlee’s video into the “Vault”? Maybe a few clips at a time? You may have to get the permissions from Lag or Two, but for me the videos of John Schlee would be priceless.
Thanks for the clips you have put up on this thread.
Just found this great forum and topic. Yes, that is the move - let me offer up another way to do it. Pronate the left wrist and get onto what in TGM is called the Turned Shoulder Plane. Then as the DS is initiated with the hips, a micro amount of additional knee flex is added - sort of compressing into the ground. This causes the hands to move down plane, the right elbow to move in front of the right hip, and the weight of the club head causes the shaft to flatten.
As you read through this site more fully you’ll find pages and pages written about this micromove, a brief second of weightlessness to compress, flatten the shaft, free ride down etc. then you get the bonus of increased pressures in your feet that you can use to power the pivot. John has a whole module (instructional modular component) that describes his version of this move. It’s really cool stuff and very neat to see you arrived at similar conclusions through your own studies.
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Hey there Lip - I probably should have read a bit more before posting or maybe done a search(?). At any rate, I read through the many informative pages of this thread in which was mentioned a pronation at the top which torques the shaft into a flatter angle. I’d tried that active method before without consistent results - I’m the type who has to go at it from the top without any direct manipulation. I must say that I actually became aware of this slotting technique some 24 yrs ago while watching Nick Price’s instructor, David Leadbetter, walking the line at the PGA Championship, demoing his version to any of the players who would listen(not many). In his version, he dropped the right shoulder at the top to get gravity to drop the club head and flatten the shaft. I wanted my shoulders to stay level and read somewhere that Hogan slightly increased his knee bend on the DS and realized that would do the trick, plus giving a very powerful feeling of DS momentum. I’m not saying that’s exactly how Hogan layed it off though. Anyway - I’m looking forward to learning about John’s version of this “power drop” and hopefully reading more great posts in this thread. It was a real treat to see for the first time, a video of John Schlee’s swing and his lesson on knee bend.
mizunojoe,
Welcome aboard. There are some great threads here in the public side. I would strongly recommend Let’s Talk Golf Machine and Thoughts on Ben Hogan.
Of course, the really good stuff is in the private side. Enter the program and you will find many great things.
I find the superslotting a most interesting topic, because some of the really good strikers I know that do this… really can’t seem to explain what they do in a way that I would have found acceptable to learn from. Flexing the knees and tucking in the right elbow might do it for some, but that never worked at all for me. I also like to go at it hard from the top… very natural for me to do that… and back when I was focused on a more 2D style golf swing, going at it hard early could cause a lot of over acceleration issues.
The SS move is a different action. I stumbled upon the biomechanical action a while back somewhat by accident. After about 6 months of working those new muscles… it started to work it’s way into my swing. I wish I had learned this when I was 13.
It certainly is not an imperative to quality ball striking, but knowing what I now know, I highly encourage students to take the plunge. I developed an ABS elective module for the more advanced students to work on. The results from the students who have put in the necessary time have been very effective. At least in learning the proper action through transition.
I set it up as a ball striking drill… because that is what it needs to be, but there are also a couple additional exercises that are very helpful in strengthening the proper muscle groups.
I always test any new concepts or prototypes in my own swing so that I can fully understand the action and the nuances…usually over at least a 6 to 8 month period of time. I don’t believe in speculative teaching. If I can’t do it… I don’t teach it. I can swing, and I can hit. That covers most basics of a golf swing. Hitting is better for most. I studied quite a bit with Moe Norman, but when I get asked to teach someone his swing, I refer them to Greg Lavern. I like a guy that can properly demonstrate the action. I could probably teach it, but some of it would be speculation.
I agree also, trying to do the SS move consciously is not going to be very effective. You work on it consciously so later down the road you can do it unconsciously. This is why I believe the players that have it under their skin have difficulty communicating precisely what they do. A bit like asking someone what they are doing while they are dreaming.
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Thanks nf. I’ve seen your swing on golfWRX forum - very nice! I recall that you had a very nice flattening action, similar to Hogan. I have briefly read through the TGM & BH sections and was very impressed with the level of knowledge. I may very well get into the private side eventually as I can’t resist the “really good stuff”.
@lag - you’ve got me curious about this unique SS action - I know of 4 ways to flatten it, and can’t imagine a 5th! Look forward to hearing more - thanks.
Feel free to post your swing here… we would love to see how you are doing it.
There may be things that are helpful… but the rotation of the forearms through transition needs to happen. A lot of players take steep backswings to help them drop it back in there behind them. Hubert Green and Nick Price come to mind.
What I find fascinating are the guys like Raymond Floyd and George Knudson who take the inside path going back and still slot it great. Inside is often coming back down OTT for most. What this tells me is that if you train your muscles correctly, you will just slot it regardless of the backswing path… and I think this is a far superior method than having to rely upon a momentum based looping action.
Hmmm… that’s surely a lightbulb moment for me. Big time. I’ve been trying hard to loop it but it’s not natural enough for me.