Thanks, RR…
Good spot Macs, I hadn’t noticed McIlroy do that little shimmy with his right heel too… pretty cool move to have a think about…
Important Stuff here…
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP9jQbvHH60[/youtube]
BOM222: Now you’re talking my language…a puzzle 
Give at least a day before you post the connection so us dimwits can have a good look at it. What’s the prize for the winner?
Boy that didn’t take long…lesson to learned- don’t have extra baggage when playing St. Andrews
Please send my prize Fedex!!!
The bike is you and the sidecar is the club. The energy of the bike never crosses out into the path of the sidecar, it runs along side of it and drives it. If the wheels were misaligned or the sidecar wasn’t attached correctly they would run into eachother, or it would fly away.
If you draw a line down from the outside of your nose to the ground, that’s the line that you cant cross because thats basically the outside edge of your shoulder turn both back and through, and also of your hand path. Believe it or not, no part of you should ever cross that line, and if you trace it down to a point on the ground, and look at it, it’s really not that far outside your toes- it’s a good mental picture. You always want to feel like you’re working down, inside, and away from that line. This is the best way to accelerate the club. If you fire any of your energy at the ball or even towards the target, you’ll cross that line, and you’ll run into the club and get stuck- you have to stay inside that line in terms of the direction of your intent.
There’s some serious syncronicity going on considering I posted these photos and then a little later BPGS1 mentioned that story about his student finding it hard to believe that unwinding left actually decreases your chances of hitting it left- not just that though, simply put, it increases your chances of hitting on line. Period.
As the motorbike sidecars are turning the corner, increasing CF, it becomes even more important to lean into the corner. If the sidecar riders didn’t lean to the inside and join the driver, then the whole thing would go spinning out wide and out of control. Our backs and rear ends are big chunks of meat and bone and are vital to this action in the swing particularly through impact as CF is at it’s max. I went into that a bit in the posture/weighlifting post.
I picked the clip of Harrington because a: he has imo a modern version of the classic swing- not many people go through the impact area better than him(Bob Torrance spent a lot of time with Hogan and apparently is one of the few if not the only person alive that Hogan went into details with- and he’s Harrington’s coach)
And b: the tip of his cap and the edge of the hotel give a great illustration of the fight he’s putting up. From the top he goes down, in, and away from the ball, and as he picks up speed you can see him fight it internally even more. The clubhead speed wins a little past impact, pulling him out, but you can see his intentions clearly as he continues the fight in and left through to his follow through. The line down from the outside edge of the rear end is also a dead giveaway for whether someone is a good player or not.
Harrington’s chin moves further inside the ball and closer to the ground during his downswing- now there’s a swing thought!
Great video. I did not know that about Torrence. Looks like Harrington’s hands fly out a lot less than many post impact, and his shaft appears below the shoulders, something you don’t see on many either.
That balance thing is tricky also. Don’t we nearly always see the great ones with a lower head at impact, which necessitates the hips farther away from the target line. Like throwing the hammer in track, the thrower has to lean back as he turns to counterbalance the weight of the ball…and hackers tend to do the opposite, they stand up and “butt tuck” at impact? Is there a way to force the correct way? Why is it some figure this out naturally, and others don’t and can’t? You got any ideas?
I like Gerry Hogan’s advice…“if you keep your nose forward of your toes,…you cannot be pushed up out of the shot”. I for one miss Gerry’s posts.
Greetings from Australia. Smoothy.
BOM222
That is really great stuff…I still want my prize however sent Fedex
Your insights into motion is solid…I’m continually amazed by the things in everyday life that are so applicable in collecting Mr. Titleist within motion and sending him to his rightful home.
When I took my kids to carnivals when they were young…and now my grandchildren…I feel like I’m walking through a maze of expanding CF, opposing forces, gravity drops, etc…pretty cool stuff. 
RR
Bom222:
Your a motion guy too. Check this out…the Internet stuff is so cool, but I don’t know how to post a clicky-do link.
Go to: mathematische-basteleien.de/spiral.htm
Check out------Archimedean Spiral- it’s about 1/4 way down on the page and has an orange axis bar. Tell me what you see. RR
Hey, I just previewed this post and it looks like the clicky bar is already there for me!! Just learned something new I guess.
Why the Archimedean spiral and not the Fibonacci spiral? Fibonnaci ratios occur throughout nature, and the classic architects used the Fibonacci ratios in their designs…said it was nature pleasing to the eye. I wondered if someone would ever find a golf connection. Other than sequences on the scorecard…3 5 8 13… 
Probably a stretch for Fibonacci. But I’m interested in hearing about the Archimedean spiral and golf.
Eagle:
There are many nuggets contained within Archimedean Spiral that are directly applicable to effective golf motion.
Here’s just one: In physics, a change in direction of velocity during a rotary event results in Centripetal Acceleration.
BOM might be on vacation Can you spot the other applicable events? RR
A mini vacation, RR, we’ll see how it goes…
Looking at the Archimedean Spiral brings to mind a kind of slow/late downswing- it would definitely be how I’d see energy traveling internally to externally in the golf swing- there’s a lot of talk about from the ground up, but I think in to out is more to the point. That spiral differs in the single vs double point(s) of rotation. I think for as tricky to time as the shift of rotational center is in the golf swing, it’s vital in terms of what we can then do to the ball. It adds a linear force to the club that wouldn’t be there otherwise- except maybe for some hand manipulation. In the golf swing we’re able to ‘stretch the center’ so to speak. This is one of the reasons that iron byron machine bothers me- I wonder where the linear force application is. It seems similar to this A Spiral idea in that there’s one arm and one rotational center.
There are so many theories as to how energy gets stored, travels, moves, accumulates etc. etc., and I suppose technically, I don’t know which one is actually true, but then again, who really does? I do know that if I rotate back and forth with my arms held at shoulder height out to my sides I can create enough speed that my finger tips hurt- and I know how to do it, and I bet everyone in the world does too. A lot of the science talk surrounding this process is noise distracting from the fact that we can do that.
That’s an Eagle Eye you have there, Eagle… he wants the club coming through his bicep which I think is bang on considering his height. I don’t believe tall people should be squashed into super flat swings. In fact one of the first things they worked on was getting his shoulder turn more upright to fit his body. There are principles that apply from a more rotational action no doubt, but they need to be hung on the hanger in the right way. There was a lot of talk back in the day that Torrance wouldn’t teach anyone who was tall because of his beliefs on the swing- that could be urban legend, but I heard it enough to feel like there was some truth to the concept at least.
Re: good players/bad players, I have a lot of ideas about that stuff… you have to grasp the truth of the situation as you stand over the ball…good players do that instinctively or they learn it and then do it… having that concept or those truths clear in your mind goes a long way if not all the way to getting you to do it. Though you do have to train it…
BOM: In my mind’s eye, the Archimedean Spiral (AS) is how I see the entire motion. The fascinating thing about this spiral is this: try to verbally explain an AS to someone without using your hands or gestures. Nearly impossible to describe it accurately. It’s childs play describing it using our hands because we know what it looks like in our mind. So the recreation of the spiral motion rests with the hands as the primary motivator and everything else responds to that intention- except the rotary piece- we have to do that.
You’re spot on about linear motion/force. We all know that an arc is the result of the simultaneous convergence of Linear and Rotory forces- but I maintain it is not an arc as it applies to golf- it is a spiral because it is coming down plane by way of centripetal acceleration which is the speed at which the body turns in relationship to the linear velocity of the club. The faster we turn, the greater the CP- and the greater the spiral… if we slow down the rotary motion, the spiral vector will proceed to travel tanget to the point at which slow down occurs. This is hard to do in words.
I don’t feel this process as a slow/late downswing…quite the opposite for me…that puppy has continual acceleration/velocity from the get go-- and I have no direct control over it. I think the picture of Harrington pulling inward is the CP that he has created by his movement. It is constant velocity and constant acceration.
Kinda like this: the inward pull of the Earth keeps the Moon in a certain orbit.
Slow down the rotational velocity of the earth and the moon will start to go more linear at the point the earth slows down.
However…if we could increase earth’s rotational velocity to twice it’s current standard then the moon could actually be pulled spirally toward the earth and we would have an AS in our night sky.
Take another look at the middle orange axis bar again. Imagine that as a clubshaft with a birds eye view of it…now go back to Hogan’s super slow motion and compare how both the orange bar/ and shaft travel horizontally for just an inch or two. Or does anyone have a Bird’s Eye view of the Wee One? or Padraig? in motion? RR
Nice point about the hands describing the spiral- says a lot about thoughts and actions.
What you’re saying regarding the CP CF relationship is something that I’ve been talking a good bit about in your absence funnily enough. They talk about fighting CF a lot around here, but in my mind the fight(CP) actually increases the CF- a very nice by product of the fight to say the least. You get to increase it by controlling it- tough to see a down side to that! I think how you see that is important in terms of how you actively move. Whether you see yourself just holding on or whether you see yourself as an active part in the creation of the thing that you’re going to hold onto is relevant.
My thoughts regarding the slow/late downswing was specific to that diagram- the energy doesn’t reach the end of the rod until too far past where impact would be, therefore it looks like it’s too slow and late.
You’re spot on with Harrington for sure, like above, he’s increasing clubhead speed by fighting it, but the lateral aspect is key. That AS doesn’t have a lateral aspect, so to me it wouldn’t encompass the entire motion.
But the overall concept in the spiral of internal to external acceleration is bang on, imo… very interesting stuff!
An important distinction would be whether you see the base of that rod as the centre of rotation of the whole motion, or whether you see it as the hands? It sounds by your description of the Hogan video that you’re seeing that point as the hands, but I’m not 100% sure…
Damn good eye and observation there Bom…you are good. You’re correct the hands are the key.
I also agree with you on fighting CF. I don’t think in a pure swing one has to fight it. The challenge is to create centripetal acceleration instead, which increases CF. If my physics definition is correct…Mandrin, where are you? increasing linear velocity juxtaposed with accelerating rotary forces by definition creates Centripetal Acceleration (CA).
CA is, I believe, is what we are actually seeing in Padraig- not centripetal force (CP)- although the definitions may be mutually inclusive- not sure.
On that sprial diagram…I see the lower Y axis as impact, and just to the right of that is low point----or for the very active, the flat spot.
What I do, for a swing, is to accelerate the shaft lengthwise( longitudinally for you TGM addicts ) while rotating- then everything drops in unison and starts to pull inward while spiraling down. Ironically, that first move lengthwise, combined with the rotary aspect moves that shaft kinda horizontally for a few inches. Check out Padraig…the clubhead moves
horizontally backwards for a fraction in response to him attempting to create CA------or the Archmedean Spiral.
Just some more ramblings from the Rat…
Do you have any birds eyes of a full motion at actual speed that we can slow down.
Yeah, RR, my science isn’t the best in the class, and my terminologies certainly aren’t my strong suit, but it sounds like we’re on the same page. Basically the more you accelerate something rotationally and pull on it at the same time, the more you make it go away from you and increase it’s speed. It seems like they’re one in the same really, since you’re no longer acting on the object if you let go of it and if you are acting on it rotationally then you also have to be pulling on it and resisting it’s outward pull… so the fight increases the speed but it’s dependent on the rotation or some sort of lead… I don’t know what you call all that but that seems to be what happens…
That lengthwise move is very important and interestingly has roots in the shoulder turn imo. If you think of the right shoulder getting to say 12 on the clock, face on, in order for it to come back around it has to spend a quarter turn actually going backwards, or away from the target until it gets to 9 on the clock. It’s also a good right arm straightening out time… It’s such an important moment in the swing and it gets lost because it’s not obvious that any part of your body is actually going backwards while you’re accelerating forward, but the right shoulder and some of the chest is…
Here are 3 vids of Hogan in computer animated form… they’re pretty cool this is the only one I’ve ever come across of him from above… there may be others…
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDFM_xFUiPU[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDiwpfQ6OvQ[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leehi9He6JE[/youtube]
Cool Stuff there BOM: Forgot to mention earlier that there is indeed a lateral aspect within the motion…it’s not like it’s turning on one stationary vertical axis point. It’s both. The first video shows the lateral move.
What I like is what happens next. That shaft goes backwards while it’s dropping which creates and elevated look to the clubhead from a caddy-view.
Those are great videos…were they on youtube?
Bingo!!
I would like to see the Archmedean Spiral ( the last one of the 3 on the spiral page ) tilted somehow on an inclinded plane instead of the birds eye view they show. Now that would be cool to see.
Well that solves swinging…want to go to hitting next? 
RR
Yeah, those videos are from youtube. I see that second one wont embed, but you can click on it and it will send you to youtube to watch it.
No worries, I figured you were there on the shift of rotational centers when I figured out you were seeing the base of that rod as the hands and not the rotational axis.
Just to make sure we’re on the same page, when I say swing I don’t mean ‘swinging’ as in how you guys mean it btw, I mean it in the generic ‘golf swing’ way. I’m always thinking about the best way to play golf, that’s all. I absolutely understand the difference, and the different requirements, but in looking at how things move, my mind is only drawn to the best way to do it. It would be similar to how Harrington goes through impact. Hitting, cutting it left, whatever you want to call it I don’t care, that’s the best way to play. I’ve got no real interest in analyzing the best way to let the club fly through impact at it’s own will. It’s really not very hard to do imo, but it makes the game awfully hard. As I like to say, it’s easy to learn how to play the hard way, but it’s hard to learn how to play the easy way. It might be kind of interesting to start a ‘swinging’ thread just to document the differences so people can bounce their experiences off it. You should do that RR to see how it goes, or just talk about your thoughts on it if you want. And no, I don’t mean that type of swinging, Captain Chaos… I can hear your wheels turning!..