Let's Talk Lag's Golf Machine

Essential Reading
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He’d have to swing left to hit it straight.

He’d have to swing more left to hit a fade.

And he could still swing slightly left to hit a draw.

Of course, a lot of it depends on Trevino’s attack angle. I’m assuming it was pretty steep given his sizeable divots. Steeper the attack angle, the more you need to swing left to hit it straight. Remember, Trevino used to hit a big hook. He claims he started to ‘hold on’ which stopped him from hooking. I think that was a big part of it but I also think his idea of aiming dead left was a big part as well.

Here’s the great thing about Trackman. For ANY doubters of Lag’s swing or philosophies, Trackman actually verifies ABS. Knowing what I know about ‘D-Plane’ and Trackman and seeing Lag’s swing and reading his thoughts and philosophies is why I joined ABS. I know thru Trackman that ABS will provide great ballstriking if executed according to plan. I just needed somebody to train me a proven way of doing it.

3JACK

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To continue on a bit on the Trevino aiming question, my sense of his alignment is that he wasn’t so much aiming left at set up, as he was facing the target. That might be a subtle difference but thats the sense I get from him. It’s as if he set himself up to give his right side clear access to the ball and the shot. It’s a nice feeling because it gives your right side a sense of power and discourages it from panicking and getting over active in transition. The ball target straight line is a bit of an empty notion I think. Where you’re aiming is really dictated by the angles of your feet. Looking DTL you may be able to connect a straight line on the toes that goes parallel to the target line, but if you look from face on, the square right foot and angled out left foot is the real determining factor of which way your body is aligned. Hogan looked like he aimed right if you look DTL at his toes, but the positioning of his feet spiraled up through his body to where his shoulders were actually aiming left- with his hips halfway between the two. He was facing the target at set up in a weird way- like a boxer or a good hitter. Bubba Watson does a similar thing- and he really loads and stays on his right leg through the swing … I’ll try to dig up a photo of him…
bubba_swng.jpg

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… oops, I mean left leg for Bubba but you get the idea…

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My brain is turning to mush :laughing: …I don’t use toe lines…I look @ heel lines as one can splay their toes in ways that make the stance line appear different than what it really is.

I not saying Trevino didn’t go left…all good swings go left at some point…it’s just that from how far left he set up, and given he moved his knees laterally to begin the downswing…the first part of the DSW came from way inside, as if to right field, before things got synced up and then he probably felt how much left to use for his flight. Is that more in line to what you are thinking 3Jack. RR

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I know this pic is of Trevino hitting a driver and not an iron- but he does in fact have a very shallow angle of attack into the ball as evidenced by the left photo- his flat swing path down and entry promotes this shallow path- a steep angle of attack would be more in tune with those who have upright swings
leemod1.jpg

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Yeah, I remember someone saying that Trevino was steep coming in and I thought that was kind of strange… can’t remember who. He definitely descended on his short irons but was clearly very shallow as a rule…
Twomasters, do you have the rest if this sequence?

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no …that was just a 3 pic photo with out any other frames

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Here’s a Trackman newsletter from July 2009 that explains quite a bit of things. (trackman.dk/getmedia/2f6c5cdc-e1 … 009_1.aspx)

Some definitions that need to be cleared up when it comes to Trackman:

Horizontal swing plane = Also known as the ‘plane line.’ In ABS terms, the release. Do you release ‘left’ (Hogan) or do you release out to the ‘right?’ (Clampett)

Vertical Swing Plane = the inclined plane the golfer swings on the downswing. Elbow plane is at a much flatter angle than the turned shoulder plane. This would be measured from the DTL view.

Attack Angle = Angle that the clubhead comes into the the ball. Measured from the face on view. Tour averages are -5* with a PW, -4* with a 7-iron, -3* with a 3-iron and -1* with a driver.

Clubhead Path = The path of the clubhead just BEFORE impact and then at impact.

In order to hit it DEAD straight, we need a clubface angle at impact of about 0* to the target. We also need a clubhead path of about 0* to the target. But the only way we can achieve that 0* clubhead PATH is to have our ‘release’ in proper conjunction with the attack angle (and to an extent the vertical swing plane).

For the sake of BREVITY, the GENERAL rule of thumb is that if you have a square face and if you have a sweetspot strike, we need to release the clubhead 1/2 of the attack angle with an iron (this is for golfers with a 60* vertical swing plane, but again it’s a general rule of thumb for the sake of brevity).

So if our attack angle is -4* with a 6-iron, then in order to hit it straight we need to release left by 2*. If it was a -10* attack angle, then it would be a -5* release to the left. If you follow that ‘release to attack angle formula’ that will actually create a club path (the direction the clubhead is coming into the ball BEFORE IMPACT) of 0*.

I believe that Trackman validates Lag’s claims quite clearly. Lag used to have a ‘release out to the right swinging procedure.’ Not only did that cause problems with him controlling the clubface, but if he executed like he was supposed to, it would make it almost impossible to hit it dead straight because the clubhead path would be dead straight. He could be really good hitting a draw with that procedure, but tough to do with consistency if you can’t control the clubface that well.

Remember Lag has said that hitting balls is good for coordination, but his drills are good for retraining muscles and the pivot. That’s why he used to hit so many golf balls back in the day. Not only did he have a swing where the hands controlled the clubface, but the path out was out to the right anyway, so even if he was really controlling the clubface on a certain day, he was likely to see some sizeable curvature of his ball flight. But if his hands were not controlling the face that well on that day, even if they were just slightly off, then he would see some very wayward shots.

What Lag has done IMO, is he completely improved his clubface control and his path when he started creating a pivot driven, hold the flex past impact, release left type of swing. That’s a great thing. I hope to accomplish it as well. I am quite certain that if Lag went onto a Trackman, his numbers would be top notch.

I’m certain that if Trevino went onto a Trackman and you told him to hit one dead straight, he could and his numbers would show he was releasing left. Why? Because that’s what he has to do according to the laws of physics.

Moe OTOH has a much shallower attack angle (bacon strips, not pork chops) and it’s no coincidence to me that he released further out to the right. Clampett took sizeable divots and release out to the right. And it’s no coincidence IMO that he struggled with the hook.

Trackman validates what good/great players knew, either consciously or subconsciously, long ago.

3JACK

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The design of a driver and an iron is different, thus we all know that the attack angles are different almost naturally. A golfer should have a steeper attack angle with a PW than they do with a 5-iron and that 5-iron should have a steeper attack angle than a driver. That’s why we don’t take big divots with a 3-iron where we might with a SW.

This design differences also causes a different spin axis according to Trackman. As I mentioned in the previous post, the general rule of thumb for irons is that if you want a square path, you need to release 1/2 of the attack angle with an IRON. I used the example of having a -4* attack angle with a 6-iron would mean that the golfer needs to release left by about -2* in order to hit it straight (provided square face and centered hit).

With the driver, the general rule of thumb is slightly different. Here the release needs to just about match the attack angle. -1* attack angle with the driver means the golfer needs to swing about 1* left in order to hit it dead straight. If the golfer hits upward with the driver, say +3*, then they need to actually release out to the right by about 3*.

I believe Trevino hits downward with the driver, but nowhere near as much as he would with a 5-iron. So that’s why he’s still releasing left, but not nearly as much with the driver as he would with an iron. This is a problem for Tiger. He’s clearly releasing out to the right by pictures. But according to Trackman, he hits -3* downward with the driver. You can do that and hit draws all day and shoot 65. But when he’s off, he misses left if his face gets closed and he mises dead right when his clubface gets wide open. Usually the latter is his problem shot. I am confident that Lag is showing us HOW to control the clubface and how to get the correct release so we hit it dead straight and above all, do it with excellent dynamics. It’s one thing to look at Trackman data and let it be a great tool to point outa very basic description of what the golfer is doing. But it’s another thing to show the golfer HOW to ‘put up good numbers’ consistently.

3JACK

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Very interesting, R3J, thanks a lot for sharing. It seems to make sense out of why the best strikers tend to fade the ball. I was doing a tally recently of top players who drew the ball and I didn’t come up with many. I’ve found it very difficult to swing it correctly and hit a draw consistently- my traditional shot… the numbers don’t add up in my head and this info really brings some clarity to that- thanks. The draw feels like the manipulation shot when you’re driving the club with the pivot.

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BomGolf222,

Thats an interesting observation…Lag teaches us how to hook the ball in module 1 and then how to slice it in module 3…Depending on how good you are at each module, the preponderance can often define the shape of your shot. Either way, your point is well made because what it boils down to is that a well performed pivot prevents the clubface from closing which is a very desirable trait for those that are interested in following Lag’s methodology…and being very accurate.

P.S. Its a work in progress for me, only 2% better every month…that said, the pennies drop slowly but surely.

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I never really looked at it that way with the best ball strikers. You can still release left and hit a draw which is a good thing.

If you have ever hit a low punch under some trees and move the ball way back in your stance in order to keep it low, you will notice that the ball tends to draw no matter what you do. That’s because your attack angle has steepened and the only way to hit it straight is to release more left in order for the path to ‘zero out.’

3JACK

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Cheers Aiguille… interesting stuff…
…and I know the feeling of slowly dropping pennies… didn’t someone say “a slowly dropped penny is a penny better dropped”…

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R3J,
From my experience I’ve found this phenomenon to be more to do with deceleration than anything else- it’s more of a specialty shot that defies standard theory or logic. It’s kind of a stop quit shot… it’s a lot harder to make it draw in that instance when you’re trying to hit it far due to the active acceleration.

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Saw a couple of you guys over on YouTube pursuant to a Hackers Unite post by Pinzer…Can someone other than Macs :laughing: Sorry Macs, you can answer too--------what is the combined benefit of slippery floor surfaces, tennis shoes, and rugs as they relate to Module 2. I’ve never ever seen anything like that in my life. :slight_smile: RR

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I find the Trackman discussion interesting but to me is so NOT the essence of ABS. Sounds like a nice diagnostic tool, great for fitting, and apparently it’s now finding it’s way into the mainstream as a teaching/practice device (although how tour pro’s suddenly have this desire for numbers is a bit shocking to me as I always thought they scoffed at discussing science and ANY technical aspects of the swing).

It’s possible that Lag might like it, but somehow (and I don’t want to speak for him) I just can’t see him using it. I think he’s developed an approach that requires nothing more than a heavy/flat 1-iron, a well-built impact bag, a cheap video camera, a strong desire to improve, and EFFORT. I think his formula leads to students who, with direction, dig it out of the dirt or out of the concrete floor of their garage and yields students who don’t have to understand the D-plane or know all the different angles and numbers that a TM provides in order to improve… and that goes for all levels of experience and skill. In turn it produces more lasting results and students who are better equipped to OWN their swing.

Yeah… I know it’s 2010, but it seems that most in here improve as they look backwards, NOT embracing or searching for the “latest and greatest” technological advance in equipment, be it for playing or analyzing. I find that, although I have access to TM, I don’t have any real desire to use it.

Then again, perhaps I suffer from “good old days” syndrome. Regardless… I am grateful for Lag’s direction and his perspective.

robbo

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I don’t even do the modules but somehow I still wanna get an ‘AMEN, BROTHER’ for that post, Robbo…

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That should have actually been posted in the student area and not the public part…there is lots of benefit to the drills the students work on…all the students will attest to it but here is not the time or place to delve into it all . I will let Lag discuss if he feels the desire. I am sure it has been discussed in some manner back in the old pages and pages of the old LTLGM thread…there is more to it than meets the eye and an important cog in wheel , hence the number 2 after it…the correct procedure of doing the drills is obvious to the students as they progress. Some vids that may pop up are actually first runs at a drill or technique and may or may not be close to what we are trying to achieve…so no use going into detail about it as what you may see in some instances is a work in progress and hard to explain. The private area for students has in depth logistical observations and training reasoning behind the module work and the order they progress

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I respectfully disagree. There is a time and place for everything, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with understanding the causes behind effects. Whether you choose to use that knowledge to improve your swing or not, it is up to you, of course.

What’s the quote? “Eons of manhours are lost trying to substitute effort for technique and trying to eliminate effect instead of cause.”

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Well I am test case. Last year I had a fulltime winter membership at an indoor center “Urban Links” who had both Trackman and some other moniter I cant find the name (but that one is based on lasers instead of doppler and although is not as accurate as Trackman but not too bad). So In six months I logged countless hours working on these things under the watchful eye of the pro who plays on Munis in Midwest in the summer. I am not too bad at understanding the physics of golf and have a reasnable knowledge of the D-plane and ball flights. In addition to the launch there were 2 cameras at every station so you could see your every swing in 2D. And to say the least I made zero improvment over those six months. Just before joining ABS in March 2009 (out of utter frustration) my pro had me on a constantly boring, gut wrenching exercise to keep taking the club back parallel to a red line on the monitor in front of me (and this guy claimed he had lessons with Leadbetter).
I dont know about the usefullness of Trackman outdoors comparing it to real ball flights but I did not get anything out of it. Mind you I am a relatively recent golf nut and my last handicap still hovered around 14.