Let's Talk Lag's Golf Machine

Page 162:

iseekgolfguru writes:


Welcome to San Francisco!

I agree, this thread has always been rooted in TGM basics and understanding. Glad to hear you agree that no one has come up with anything that has fallen outside of the book. I have done my best to try and explain the actions of many of the greatest ball strikers of all time using quotes from TGM as you well know.

What do you think of Stack and Tilt stuff? does that fall outside of the borders you find acceptable for you boundaries? Just curious really.

Paul, I think your analogy of the car and mechanic is simply poor, because in golf, the car and driver are occupying the same place in space. In golf, you are both the car and the driver… I think it’s good to understand the mechanics of what you are doing in case you break down a long way from the shop, like the first tee, and a tow won’t be available till after the 19th hole cart girl brings beverages.

I agree that you and Dart have bastardized the use of hitting and swinging… no argument here… reading the yellow book is very clear in what is going on there… you might want to pick up the book and have a re read as I did this year. I appreciate your suggestion that I visit Lynn Blake’s site, but a few of my students have sent over some lesson vids of his that I took a quick glance at, and from what I saw, Lynn is teaching two version of swinging… one with a passive hand and arm throw out to right field, and another active right arm driving to right field. Homer is clear that both of these methods are in fact based on a swinger’s protocol.

I’ll be addressing your 7 points of interest in the coming threads…

Welcome to San Francisco iseekgolfguru!


The divisions even amongst TGM are huge as are the interpretations of each separate sect of the cult
Smith may have a certificate from somewhere, but a golfer? I have some info , is there any swings
of this Guru around anywhere to view? Anybody got some, please show the dynamic precision action

Page 162:

iseekgolfguru writes:

Thanks for the quote…was meaning to do this when I got home.

What really gets me upset as a teacher who strives to the highest ideals is that a teacher need not be a good player.
Good is subjective no doubt, but there are generally accepted benchmarks.

For example, it is said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but most of us normal folk would readily concede that a Miss World would represent an ideal type of beauty.

Thus it is with golf.

If one cannot demonstrate as well as one can talk golf swing, one can mask it by:

1) Promulgating that a teacher is a mechanic while a player is a driver as quoted above.

That is great for rocket science and race cars, but this is golf and it is hardly an appropriate analogy.
Harvey Penick could play.
So did Peter Kostis and Jim McLean.
Even Hank Haney (who will never beat Tiger Woods in his lifetime) used to play to a +2.

Is that good teaching?

If you can’t demonstrate what you are teaching, it proves conclusively that what is being taught is wrong or the ability to impart the correct information is lacking.

If you can’t demonstrate, how are you able to translate the feeling of certain motions to the student?
In golf instruction, one of the most basic tenets is: “What you feel and what you do are most of the time anti thesis to one another.”

Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Good teachers always have good students - in so many words, show me who is coming for lessons.
Just like good cheesecake will always have a queue.

2) Teach from a basement with all the latest gadgets that can detect the most minute of movements but can’t show where your ball goes past 5 metres (good if all you can hit is a weak slice).

Is that good teaching?

You can fool some people some of the time.
You can fool most people some of the time.
You can fool some people all the time, but… you cannot fool everybody all the time.

3) Choose not to post swing clips on YouTube so that no one can scrutinize the action and check the veracity of the information being imparted.

Is that good teaching?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Every teacher worth a dime would have a half decent swing.
Yes, the golf swing should be demonstrated at normal playing speed, not a chip or pitch shot, but a full speed at normal playing speed.
Anyone with a mirror and time on their hands can primp and pose eventually to look like Ben Hogan - just like anyone with enough paint,metal and welding torch can make a junk car look decent.

Last gripe…

“This is a TGM principled based forum”

That is a presposterous claim when the subject matter at hand cannot be quoted from the book - yes, the book is that precise if one chooses to live by it.
Worse, the instructor in question believes that quoting the book is not required to be a good teacher (see a common line of thinking). That is just like your mathematics professor saying that knowing algebraic formulae is not de rigeur to be a good mathematician.
My point is…if you are extremely familiar with a subject matter, quoting it will come naturally.

My idea of good TGM teaching is not by explaining “oh that is easy, just do this and that.” Good teachers do not ever explain things away.
Its about understanding what is right with TGM and then through personal experience teach the students how to produce the right moves through drills etc.

As expressed in a post of mine here - trying to do “this and that” will not give you “this and that”. What usually feels right may be wrong and vice versa, this again will be pretty abstract to the teachers who can’t do “this and that” at full speed.

The only true blue blooded TGM principled based forum (read that as Homer was correct yesterday, today and forever) is LBG. Period.

Its unfortunate that things have come to such a stage, but behind every dark cloud lies a silver lining.
At the end of the tunnel, sometimes the light is really the start of a new and better beginning, not the headlamps of another train approaching.

Having kept quiet these 4-5 years I have know the person in question, it is time the whole world know what this has been all about.

Hello Caedus,

Welcome to ABS. You say you “have some info”? Sounds intriguing - what is it about? TGM, MORAD, the golf swing, equipment, your background or own experiences? I’m sure your posts on any of those subjects would be good value. But I hope the info you refer to doesn’t focus on Paul Smith. If it does I personally want no part of it or any attempt to humiliate any individual. What has happened over at ISG has happened now and I would rather we focused on going forward and not fall into the trap of aping the mistakes and flaws we accuse others of.

Thanks, Arnie

I agree Arnie, this isn’t about Paul Smith…

I think this thread seems to have the spirit of exploring and questioning golf swing theory from an intellectual lens, and keeping debate open, and hopefully insightful.

My hope for the continuance of LTLGM here is that we continue to question, analyze, scrutinize, and grow from the power of respectful discussion.
The success of this thread certainly has not been due to everyone agreeing on everything. Debate is healthy and often informative.

Abraham Lincoln was once quoted

“I hold on to an idea until I am shown a better one”

The spirit of this thread has never been that of censorship, and that is what was happening at iseek… and that is why it is now here in San Francisco.

I hope we can all breath a bit easier now… and let this thread evolve further if it still has any legs left… it certainly has run a long way!

This thread will run and run…the transplant is complete and the heart beats again.

Onwards with advanced ball striking!

I’m on page 50-something of that thread on ISG. It has been interesting and insightful. I’m sometimes surprised at how adults behave on an internet forum. I think Jeff Mann behaved impeccably as did Lag in his responses to him. There was a healthy debate on different opinions from many contributors - obviously I will take Lag’s real life experiences over Jeff’s but the debate was nonetheless very good for the thread - and yet some people from a very early stage in the thread wanted to stifle it. Later on it was not just Jeff that was ostracised. I’ve seen this behavious in just about every discussion that dicusses advanced matters. It’s quite surprising how intelligent people can behave when backed into a corner or when their belief system has been challenged. Nevertheless there is some great debate going on there. Just a pity that some felt it necessary to close it down when there were claims being made that did not fit with their own version of the bible - oops I mean HG’s TGM. It would be good if that thread could continue here with lots of questions to Lag, Twomasters and other gurus of the golf swing about sustaining the lag. :sunglasses:

This is great, one of the main reasons I liked the ISG forum was this thread. Hopefully some others that were banned can come here and I can read and learn! Bring it on fellas.

We’ll, like I have said before… I have never had a problem with a thread dying, or running out of gas… that happens, and it may very well happen here… but I don’t like the idea of one man making that decision for the rest of us… that doesn’t work for me…
so we go on…

I’m not interested in intellectual censorship on a public forum. It should be a given that we are decent to one another obviously.

I have been receiving a lot of emails from iseekers, that have been just silent viewers, not ever posting, and many have shown support if not anger at what has happened. In my opinion we are in good shape here… the thread is alive, and all we can do is on occasion, put something up on iseek to let the silent viewers know that the resurrection has taken place.

I believe that if people who have enjoyed this and want to continue to follow this thread, they should have the opportunity to do so. It’s been a good thread, lots of good stuff, and if someone has a question or something they think is a relevant point of interest or topic, then they should be open to chiming in.

I suppose if one where to simply google “lagpressure” you will quickly find this site… an new hidden garden of golf goodies tucked away in a far away corner of the internet.

I’m not interested in this becoming some big commercial golf site… just a good one, with lots of fantastic content. My feeling is that if we keep our heart in the right place, the rest will take care of itself…

Info on all subjects you mentioned , but is it anything others have not said before, most likely not. With regard to Paul Smith
I have no intention of deriding his swing , I just want to see it out of Curiousity
I even asked on ISG and got blown off, Simply cant fathom why no demonstration , Its just a golfswing not something that is going to change the world


Can you tell us a bit about your background? TGM? MORAD? I think I saw somewhere that you used to or still do work with Mac.
I remember you mentioning something about the tailbone thrust into finish as being important for your action.

Personally for my own swing, I embrace more of a tai chi posture into finish, the feeling of keeping the lower ab muscles tightened to help keep a cohesive connection throughout my body, from the feet, right up through my shoulders, and down into my arms and hands… it’s one of the things I work with students on later into the course, once they have their muscles firing in a good sequence… we then start to tighten the screws down so to speak.

I also am a big believer like Knudson and Hogan to finish up flat onto the left foot. I use a wider stance than most as Moe showed me, and I know Knudson and Trevino embraced that also. The wider stance helps you finish flat up on the left foot as Knudson talked about in his book. The wider stance is not something Mac encourages, or at least didn’t years ago… narrower stance quicker turn. The’re certainly is logic in that, but I really like rooting into the ground for good balance and support, and being able to create opposing forces with rotation as that aids in a tougher pivot action post impact, that relays back to impact as a more “steel like” effect upon the collision forces of impact. I’m not a big fan of compression leakage…


Welcome, and thank for stopping by…

The problem is that it came across to many (including myself) like you were trying to discredit him and the product he retails, TGM, publicly, at his place of business. His forum is an optional read, you haven’t paid for it and there is no shortage of instruction out there. If Paul believes showing a his swing publicly is counterproductive to his cause, then that’s his call. KOC supplied a great video showcasing TGM and answering your original request, but the lack of thanks shown makes me think you had an alternative motive.

Lag , Have tried out many methods over the years and somewhat come to the conclusion that pivot thrust is the 5th accumulator just as you state.This is not TGM literal , but much more user friendly in a way to describe hula hula move in some ways. Whether great players such as Ben Hogan actively used the stand up move off his left leg is debateable / due to his lay off move and getting the sweetspot above the plane . He needs to send it down fast , my guess is its a combination of inertia to uncock the left wrist /roll the #3 off the pivot thrust, in other words I’m guessing he was aware of it

As far as Mac O’grady Morad , any real info on this being posted on forums is hard to find, lots of speculation, the S/T info contains a lot of Morad and the tailbone release is relevant . The stand up move/ tailbone starts from the ground up ,left knee outside left hip and straightening fast and extending of the spine , and the beltline should go forward and up, in turn the hands will go up the plane ( ripped up the plane as Lag describes from impact to finish)

S/T call this the pouncing cat and the stretch of the spine should be felt even more in this pattern , through the beltline up to the upper thorasic , hips forward as far as possible , head steady , to tilt the axis

Not sure how to post pics here but they sure tell a thousand words when it comes to describing this move, reading it and how each individual goes about it will differ in what they need or do feel

For forum guys who disapprove of debates and fireworks , thats when you learn things, TGM Literalist v MORAD = explosion , the winner is Morad , but thats my opinion

Thanks Lag , i believe you got sent packing in bad taste, particularly the last post and a thread lock to finish

To Steb, Guess you are right its his forum and so he dont need to showcase or dem a swing/hit

I am certainly familiar with the tailbone thrust move… but it certainly does put pressure upon the lower back, and does encourage an earlier loss of right foot ground pressures. Keeping the abs firm through the hitting area does wonders for keeping a proper cohesive body tension or connection though the most important part of the swing… the impact arena…

I think both methods have pros and cons… like most things in the golf swing…

So are you am or pro? teaching ? playing?

I do have vids of Paul’s swing… but I don’t see a reason to post them…
He by self admission is not a high caliber player. I understand his point about armchair instruction, but there is huge advantage to understanding what things need to feel like within the body.

This is why I like to study the swings of great strikers in books and read between the lines as much as I can to gain insight into what they felt and worked toward.

Moe was notorious for saying one thing and doing another… but a lot of time “the what he said” really did create “the what he did”… and this is where the gems lie of you keep an open mind, and keep things in that context. That’s one of the reasons I really like Knudson’s book. I don’t see anything conflicting from my vantage point. All the stuff about passive dead hands makes sense to me, because when you really master great hitters hands, the hit feels so late in the swing… even post impact, that the overall sensation can very well be dead and passive… I basically becomes an involuntary reaction, and this is why Knudson was such a pure flusher… it really was on auto pilot… fantastic stuff.

Just a 26 hnd hacker Lag , See if i can round up some guys to post



Great to have you back again… just like old times…! In a way it feels like taking a deep breath of fresh air, maybe after being pulled from the tomb like Lazerus might have felt!

The best thing about this thread has always been the interesting discussion on the golf swing…

I actually think the lack of censorship here now (it’s only big bad me now!), will be very positive, without having the feeling we have to tip toe around or walk on eggshells.

Lately some of the students here have been pondering stance width. I know you worked with Mac for a while and I remember Mac was more keen on a narrower stance, in a way like a figure skater would pull everything in close and tight to speed up rotation.

I was looking at some old vids of my swing back from the 1988 Quebec Open, and I was really narrow back then. In recent times I have gravitated towards a much wider stance.

Moe was big on the stance being the width of the Great Pyramids of Egypt, Hogan and Trevino, Knudson also wide.

I know you are quite an introspective guy who I’m sure has thought at great lengths about such concepts… so when you check back in here, would love to hear your thoughts…

I’m on page 60 now and take back my statement that Jeff Mann behaved impeccably :smiling_imp: Talk about stubborn.
I’m really enjoying this thread though and finding little pearls of wisdowm on every page. It’s also developing into a great soap opera as the ISG guys are starting to change their tune… :sunglasses:

while we are in this bit of transition stage, it would be wonderful if on each of the separated 10 page threads you leave a few basic notes as to what went on in there… so it could be much easier to access… in other words… just the general major topics, that went on or anything that you found particularly interesting… we can do that here, and that is why I set it up that way.
The stored files on iseek are locked and don’t offer this kind of flexibility for further discussion even if it where to be unlocked.
I won’t be over there anymore, as I really am not interested in the walking on egg shells thing, and all the censorship. Respectful behavior is a given… but peoples opinions and differences should be encouraged, as that is what makes a good forum interesting.

I learned a ton over there… and it really made me think very deeply about a lot of topics that I might have otherwise glazed over. It’s that thread that inspired me to do a very detailed re read of TGM which led me to the realizations that I now have about it’s oversights… and now we have this here… so I really attribute LTLGM for the creation of this site

Anyone want to bite on that one? :astonished: