The old guy’s comments:
Trackman…a crutch
Trevino…don’t think he swung “left” to hit it straight or “zero out” as was stated. Didn’t he aim left, swing right, and walk straight?
Hitting a straight ball…got to learn how to hit it crooked first, on demand.
Lag, didn’t you talk about Greg Norman being put on two scales or pressure plates or something back in the day?
What’s the difference between NYC’s pressure plates and that?
The ‘scales’ or ‘weights’ in the Norman scenario (and there were about 30 others tested also…) wasn’t hi tech. It did however show …and show very well… that when the pros said they move their weight left on the downswing and are predominantly left side weighted at impact…that they actually weren’t 
They all felt like they drove their weight left but they were just about all stil heavily right side weighted at the point they believed they were onto their left side
Norman was actually somewhere around 65 right side/35 left side still at impact… have to dig the article out. It really shows that what is meant to be expressed, what is happening and what needs to be done can actually be very different things
As far as these monitors or whatever…everytime and i mean EVERY time… I tested on anything like this… the club that came up with the best ‘numbers’ according to the testers…was in fact the most useless club ever when taken to the course
The only way to test stuff is to sample it under normal conditions out on the course and see what you can do with it in different conditions and winds etc
Cheers Hugo, I knew I wasn’t imagining about the scales.
What I am saying is that that non ‘hi tech’ method seemed to show some inteeresting data. Why should the latest version not be viewed as a valuable tool to discover more about this ‘feels as if’ too?
If 30 pros got measured on this device and it all pointed to the same thing, a thing a high handicapper didn’t do, would that not be useful information? Its not necessarily about finding out what Woods does, by screening lots of players then hitherto unknown info may be revealed.
6’4"?!? The reality is you are a freak of nature and should stick to volleyball or basketball where you belong! 
Captain Chaos
Not enough N2O, Welshy!
Captain Chaos
You can bring it with you. It’s about the size of a suitcase. You can take it to the range (that’s another reason why golfers like it, it works on outdoor ranges on grass), takes about 5 minutes to setup and you’re good to go. I completely agree with you on being able to fix your own swing and there’s obviously times where you need to make a quick fix on the course, although personally that’s something I try to avoid, but sometimes something has to be done. But like I said, it costs $30K to own and then another $300 a month for maintainance.
3JACK
The feel isn’t always real, especially with the Tour pros. Trevino aimed dead left and even if he felt like he was ‘swinging right’ he was likely still swinging left in relation to the target. This pic of him hitting an Irons shows him clearly swinging left in relation to the target (perfectgolfswingreview.net/TrevinoDownswing.jpg) You can also figure out how to hit fades and draws on command with Trackman as well.
Let’s say you are working on post impact pivot thrust and struggling with it. Then you take your normal swing where you don’t have the post impact pivot thrust. And the numbers from Trackman show that in order to hit it straight on command, you basically need to ‘swing more left.’ Then you take what you’ve learned from Lag, but now you try to swing more left. Then once you get the numbers on Trackman you would like, you start to see that your post impact pivot thrust is much better. Now you can take that feel you had from ‘swinging more left’ and use it in order to get your post impact pivot thrust down.
Again, the actual instruction and quality of instruction is vital. But Trackman can used to help both the student and teacher.
I understand being skeptical about the new technology, but it is excellent. Lag certainly ‘swings left’ as he describes his ‘hitting procedure’ and Trackman would show exactly why he can hit it straight, hit a fade, and hit a draw on command. How he does it is a completely different story. But combine the how and the why to me is a very powerful combination.
3JACK
Here’s where I can tell you why clubfitters are not all that knowledgeable and even with something like Trackman (which is both a teaching a fitting tool) can be hazardous in the wrong hands. I got back into the game last January after an 8-year layoff and wanted to get some new clubs back in March. Decided to go thru Trackman, figuring that it’s the most accurate launch monitor. And I wound up with clubs that were +1/2" over standard and 1* upright (so the effective lie angle was really 2* upright).
I now use some 1963 Hogan irons that are 1* flat compared to standard and -1/2" shorter compared to standard (so the effective lie angle is 2* flat) and hit them just fine. I do plan on going with standard shaft lengths down the road to get back my distance, but will keep the lie angles flatter.
Did I also mention that the clubfitter wanted me to put graphite shafts in my new irons? Why? Because when I hit the graphite well, I hit them the furthest out of any shafts and just as straight as any steel shaft. Of course, that didn’t figure in things like trajectory and consistency and I stuck with the steel shafts. I put graphite in my irons back in college when the clubfitter I used back then suggested it. I hated them and knew that I didn’t want graphite in the new irons, but there I was with another clubfitter telling me to put graphite in the irons.
I firmly believe Trackman is awesome in the right hands, just like a Ferrari is in the right hands. But if you hand the keys over to the wrong person, you’re likely going to crash.
3JAK
Ritchie3:
…maybe camera angle has something to do with it, but sure looks like the merry one going right to me in relation to his stance line…like a block…I’ll have to ask Chi Chi what he did. 
I learned straight ball flight the old way: by iteration or, in today’s parlance, trapping. IMHO if one learns how to hit a “mouse chasing hook” on demand and a “put it into orbit slice” on demand…straight is easy…it’s in the middle of the two. But who wants to hit it straight anyway 
I don’t think there is a difference, other than the modern stuff being more accurate. That machine also measured rotational forces.
NYC
That’s probably the best way to go.
NYC
R3J,
I’d play around with even flatter than that with a mid/long iron just to see what it feels like. I had one iron bent 5* (maybe 6*) flat (and was told it would be unplayable). Now my other irons make me feel like I have to come in too steep to make good contact. You’re already an accomplished player…I honestly believe you’ll like the confidence of feeling you can go as hard as you wish and not worry about the left side of the course. I haven’t had a chance to really dig into the accuracy portion, but it all makes perfect sense and will report back as soon as the snow is gone.
I was talked into graphite shafts in my irons when I got my Mizuno Grads many years back. The salesman said that Mizuno perfected the carbon shaft technology and it was superior in consistency to iron. What a load! 
There is nothing more deflating than getting the 1 in 5 wedge shot from the middle of the fairway that flies 140 yards instead of the 120 yards I was counting on! Should’ve known there is a reason the pros don’t play graphite in their irons.
I traded them in on my Mizuno Trues. Now I have to get those bent 5*-6* flat and listen to the fitter tell me my game will go south.
Cheers,
Captain Chaos
I have bent a 3 iron (you can get a lot of them at Salvation Army) to 48 degrees meaning 10-12 degrees flat. I use it mostly for my drills but during the summer I used to hit balls on the range with it. And trust me its the biggest trainer of the pivot. I could hardly bring down any balls straight, all going right but its quite a revelation.
I really feel strongly about learning from your own ball flights with your own eyes. There’s some magical stuff that happens in our own computers that I can’t explain when we see our ball flights, and we learn to relate the flights back to little feelings or sensations that took place in our swings. This is all about knowing your own game and why learning your own swing is such a personal experience. This trackman sounds kind of cool, but I’d resist it the same way I resist GPS devices in my car. I’d rather get lost a few times and learn the way myself than get there every time without being involved in the journey, or even knowing which way I turned. It’s like the difference between driving a car and being a passenger. As a passenger you get there but it’s extremely easy to switch off and not remember the way you came. If you’re asked to drive the next time by yourself you realize that pretty quickly. I don’t think our brains are very good at figuring out which part of what you learn will or won’t be there the next time. I imagine it would be easy to wonder what trackman would think about a shot you’ve just hit on the course instead of turning to yourself for the answer. I remember getting super technical for a time when I was in college and I noticed myself in tournaments hitting bad shots and finding comfort in thinking about heading to the range with my camera or doing mirror work in the room instead of figuring a way to get the job done while I was out there. Scared the crap out of me! It was like I was playing a game within a game and missing the point of the actual game I was playing! It’s an easy habit to slip into when working on your swing and I get a similar sensation thinking about the relationship I would form with something like trackman. Maybe that’s just me.
There was a very interesting thing on the golf channel about Ernie Els a few weeks ago and there was some interviews with his family and friends. There was one thing his father said that I thought was cool. It was sort of off the cuff but he was essentially saying that when Ernie was younger and playing his best he had no idea what clubs he was using or anything about launch monitors or spin rates, he just knew what to do with the club he had in his hands. He was kind of irritated saying it too, it was funny. I’m not saying switch off and not work on your game or swing, but that there are good and bad ways to learn what you want. Something to remember is that the smartest people in the world are working non stop to try and get a computer to be as clever as a human brain, and they’re not even close!!
Plan on bending the MacGregor 985 blades about 5-6* flat. Those are more at standard lengths (5-iron measures 37.75") and I really like the Hogans and when I get the specs to where I want them, I want to make sure they are done right. The MacGregors I am not attached to that much.
One of the good things about Trackman is that you can truly understand what a dead straight shot looks like. I already knew what it looked like and I’m sure there are plenty of golfers here who do. But there are higher handicappers I know of that will tell me when I hit a shot that I hit it so straight and I don’t have the heart to tell them I actually hit a draw or a fade.
3JACK
Ritchie3:
Your mention of beginners recognizing ball flights cracked me up…does this sound familiar:
PRO: What are you trying to do?
AM: Just hitting it straight out
PRO: Straight out where?
AM: Out there
PRO: How will you know if you are successful?
AM: The ball will go straight
PRO: Straight where?
PRO: If you were shooting free throws and there wasn’t a basket, how would you know if you were sucessful?
AM:
bingo…
He’s going left in relation to the target for his fade. But for straight flight, which was the point I was trying to make, he would have to swing out right. Isn’t that the law of angles…two 45’s make a 90
