I can see from one of the pictures on the Kelowna Urban Links site the laser unit you mentioned is the Golf Achiever II - a pretty well respected indoors unit but purely a calculated ball flight.
My experience with Trackman is itâs a decent fitting tool, but really better at fitting the driver and also keeping your âgapsâ reasonable. The driver it works well because not only does it measure things like launch angle and spin rate accurately, but it also measures the angle of the downward descent of the ball as it flies. The âgapsâ is basically measuring your yardage between clubs. So if you hit your 4-iron only 5 yards further than your 5-iron, then they can check out the specs of the club and see whatâs going on. But, it wonât teach you what swingweight your clubs should be, what your lie angles should be, etc.
I think itâs a good teaching tool. I think it can make a lousy teacher somewhat decent and a decent teacher pretty good. As far as ABS goes, it would definitely show the importance of releasing left to square up the path. But how you get that club swinging left is a different story. If you read enough Trackman reports, youâll see that the Tour pros are very consistent with their clubface angle. If a pro has a slightly open clubface at impact, heâll likely be that with every shot on Trackman. For amateurs, theyâll have the clubface all over the place. I think it shows that clubface control is ultra important and most golfers donât realize that, they think itâs things like a backswing plane, grip, address, etc that dictates clubface control. But even if they now recognize the importance of clubface control thru Trackman, how is a whole other deal. I do think Trackman would be great for somebody like Tiger and get him out of believing some of the junk he is into with his swing today.
3JACK
Respectful disagreement is a cornerstone of ABS. I choose to do the same. âEliminate effect instead of causeâ??? TM is all about effect⌠how does it eliminate cause? It provides numbers only.
I donât know if youâre in the program, but I hope you are before you state with any level of authority that âmanhours are lost trying to substitute effort for techniqueâ without knowing about either. ABS requires effort, but I assure you itâs not âlostâ on technique.
robbo
Hey Steb
You are in Australia right? how do you know about Kelowna? And thats what it is Golf Achiever II.The place in Edmonton closed down running away with some of my money. If I knew I would have snatched their lie and swing weight machine.
Richie,
Do you know where a Trackman is here around SF?
I donât mind taking a look at my numbers for entertainment purposes⌠but I can tell a lot by
how I am playing out on the golf course, by the shape of my shots, and my divot patterns.
When I am swinging best, I can hit a slight draw with the ball starting a little right, but my divot going
slightly left. Itâs a great feeling.
I know this is popular opinion, but I teach a bit more sophisticated way of lining up in the ABS course.
I show students how to draw and fade from basically any stance⌠open or closed⌠much easier way to do itâŚ
Doesnât get any better than thisâŚworth the price of admissionâŚwho was that guy that said itâs a game of opposites. 
Your post about Urban Links made me search. I have been designing a unit similar to the Trackman as a bit of a background project (but more for simulator use) and explore everything I get a lead to.
I agree 1000% on playing and how it can help a golfer a lot more, Lag. I like Trackman a lot, but I do understand its limitations and such. I also get the feeling that many teachers who would use Trackman would try to get the right numbers by using the hands and the arms more which can produce good shots, but I believe would not result in any consistency. Like I said, I think Trackman validates ABS because ABS can show how to âput up good numbersâ and do it time and time again.
Anyway hereâs the NorCal locations according to the Trackman Locator (trackman.dk/Customers/TrackMan-Locator.aspx)
San Jose Municipal Course (sjmuni.com)
408-441-4653
Butler Irons/Doctor Grip LLC - Princeton by the Sea, CA (butlerirons.com)
650-728-0800
Haggin Oaks - Sacremento, CA (hagginoaks.com)
916-481-4653
3JACK
Hereâs a sample of some Trackman numbers I had sent to me awhile back. The actual reports are more âprofessionalâ looking. Again, it doesnât show how to do it, but more or less what the clubhead, clubface and ball are doing.
This is with a 6-iron:
- Clubhead speed = 91.8
- Ball speed = 124.9
- Smash Factor = 1.36
âSmash Factorâ is just a calculation of Clubhead Speed / Ball Speed.
Itâs important because it tells the golfer how âpureâ they hit the ball on the sweetspot. I canât find the PGA Tour averages, but the longer the club the higher the smash factor. IIRC, smash factor with the driver cannot be more than 1.53 according to the rules and that is very rare. With persimmon drivers, the smash factor will be very low.
- Attack angle = -4.7
Attack angle is the angle, from the face on view, that the clubhead comes into the ball. The PGA Tour average is -4* with a 7-iron. So at -4.7* with a 6-iron (the longer the club, the attack angle shallows out), this golfer is a little steeper than the PGA Tour average.
- Vert swing plane = 54.2
This is the plane of the downswing. Somebody using the 4:30 line will have a much flatter vertical swing plane than somebody who uses the TSP on the downswing.
- Horiz swing plane = 2.0
Since this golfer is hitting an iron, the general rule of thumb is that in order to have a club path of 0 degrees (which is a square path and helps the golfer increase the likelihood of hitting it dead straight), the golfer needs to have a Horizontal swing plane that is ½ of the attack angle. The Horizontal Swing Plane in ABS terms is just âreleasingâ the clubhead left or right AFTER impact.
Here the golferâs attack angle is -4.7. In order for the golfer to have a clubpath of 0*, he would need to ârelease leftâ by about -2.35 degrees (in Trackman a negative number means either downward or leftward. A + number means either upward or rightward).
Anyway, this golferâs HSP (aka release) is out to the right by 2* which is way out to the right of where it needs to be to square up the path.
- Club Path = 5.4
The club path is the path the clubhead comes into the ball into impact. Whereas HSP is the release after impact, this is the clubhead path before and into impact.
Because this golfer had a -4.7* attack angle, but released out to the right by 2*, the clubpath going into the ball is very far out to the right (or âinside-to-outâ). Thereâs no way this golfer can hit a dead straight shot at the target because the path is just too far out to the right. However, they can still hit a great draw shot.
From reading posts from fellow ABS students, they start developing a draw/hook after module 1 and then it starts to disappear by module 2 or 3. My belief is that once they get into the 4:30 line they start developing a path out to the right. Then once they get the footwork/lower body action and post impact pivot thrust, then the path naturally squares up.
- Dyn Loft = 18.3
This is the loft of the club at impact. Forward shaft lean decreases the loft.
- Face angle = 2.4
This is the face angle at impact. Itâs slightly open. Thatâs a good thing because the golferâs path is a bit out to the right. Because of the ânew ball flight lawsâ, this means that the initial direction of the ball is primarily due to the face angle at impact. And curvature of the ball is due to the club path in relation to the clubface at impact.
Here, the golferâs CLUB PATH is at 5.4* out to the right. If the golferâs clubface was ALSO at 5.4* open, then the golfer would hit a straight block. If the face was 7* open, then the golfer would hit a block SLICE because the path would actually be outside-to-in compared to the face.
But in this situation, the PATH is inside-to-out (or âmore out to the rightâ) that the angle of the clubface. So the ball will start out to the right a bit and should draw/hook back towards the target (provided that the ball is hit on the sweetspot).
- Vert. angle = 12.7
- Horiz angle = 3.1
These are initial angles. So the ball went vertically 12.7* and out to the right 3.1*
- Spin rate = 6943
- Spin axis = -2.0
Spin axis is whether the ball had hook spin or slice spin (or âstraight spinâ). This is a negative number, so the ball is spinning left or has hook spin, which was expected given the data.
- Max Height = 28.4
- Carry = 166.9
- Side = 2.7R
- Length = 172.3
- Side yards = 2.5 R
Ball stayed out the right by 2.5 yards, but that may have been the wind and/or a slightly off center clubface strike. One of the great things about Trackman is you can use it outdoors on grass. So I certainly understand the skepticism towards launch monitors because you pretty much have to use all of them indoors, but with Trackman you donât.
3JACK
I think you may have misinterpreted the point I was trying to make, or maybe I wasnât clear enough, but I was referring to angles of the feet looking at them face on ie. left splayed out and right toes pointing in etc. or whatever position they are in, not in a DTL simplistic directional way. These angles have a significant impact on how the body then sits in relation to things, or itâs ability to âaimâ itself or itâs energy where itâs required. For example, if the left toes were pointing behind the ball and away from the target, the body would then have a very difficult time aligning itself, or developing a good relationship with the shot or the target. It wasnât really a draw/fade reference either, more to do with the general positioning of the body in relation to the ball/shot/ or target.
If you disagree with that then weâd probably just have to agree to disagree, or Iâd love to hear your thoughts about it- Iâm always open to learningâŚ
Hereâs another Trackman report. This is one with a bad shot.
- Clubhead speed = 87.3
- Ball speed = 127.1
- Smash Factor = 1.46
- Attack angle = -3.4
So, attack angle is at -3.4*, so the âreleaseâ has to be about -1.7* (releasing left) in order to square up the path.
- Vert swing plane = 63.1
- Horiz swing plane = 3.9
HSP = âreleaseâ and when he needed to ârelease leftâ he released quite a bit out to the right. Probably indicative of a pivot stall past impact.
- Club Path = 5.7
Because the release was not anywhere near left enough, the clubpath winds up way out to the right.
- Face angle = -3.6
Face angle is very closed. Closed face and path way out to the right, snap hook time.
- Dyn Loft = 11.3
- Vert. angle = 7.2
- Horiz angle = -0.9
- Spin rate = 6194
- Spin axis = -17.9
Spin axis is hooking hard.
- Max Height = 15.5
- Carry = 165.4
- Side = 29.3L
- Length = 178.5
- Side yards = 34.1 L
Ball missed the target 34 yards to the left, with a 6-iron.
3JACK
Richie
That analysis will indeed be helpful; nothing like an example. The place that I worked at never considered the data that way. I guess there needs to be athinking brain. I have one question though. Because its a doppler device (and there is at least one more called Flightscope), I believe it tracks the ball for all the flight variables and then calculates the club data from the ball flight. How accurate that calculation is. Steb may jump onto this too as he is designing one.
PS: Do they still have to mark the ball with a shiny marker?
Iâm not exactly sure how all of the ânuts and boltsâ of Trackman work, but I know it doesnât take a âsnap shotâ of everything and then come up with figures. Hereâs a YouTube video of a sample driver fitting using Trackman youtube.com/watch?v=0oPN0mSeipM
Everybody Iâve talked to says that Trackman is the most accurate launch monitor out there and itâs not even close. Stay away from FlightScope. I had a friend try both Trackman and FlightScope out and he says that Trackman was extremelly accurate, great tool, etc. But he said FlightScopes numbers are wayy off and simply cannot be accurate. Iâve seen some FlightScope reports and none of them made any sense and it just came off as inaccurate information.
3JACK
Does the Trackman give a number for both pre and post impact clubhead speeds? That would be most interesting to me.
Acceleration or deceleration from two feet before impact to impact? That would be valuable information.
No, I donât believe so. For something like that I would imagine you would have to get hooked up to one of those 6-degree 3D machines. Iâm not even sure if they measure that. I know thereâs devices that measure that as Dr. Robert Grober who created the Sonic Golf device measured both the hand speed and clubhead speed of golfers pre-impact, at impact and post impact.
3JACK
What I would be interested in seeing is how my pre and post impact velocities would differ using a 14 ounce persimmon or even going at it with a 15 or 16 ounce⌠then take a swing with a modern lightweight club, and compare the deceleration rates post impact.
This is why I think Hogan and Knudson were big on heavy stiff gear, to minimize post impact deceleration rates, and why I think the modern lightweight stuff is not working as well as it should for a variety of reasons.
Homer Kelley was all over this too in his chapter 2 which I think was excellent.
Iâll try and look around and see if I know of anybody who would be able to measure this and hopefully in the SF area. I see where you are going with this. Very interesting.
3JACK
Richie
I lookes at the Trackman video. My suspision is that the ball data is real and the club numbers is calculated from the launch angle and spin direction/rate etc , according to the software. Which will mean that Trackman is good for club fitting (especially finding the right driver which will give you the best distance/direction combination). But it may not be reliable for evaluating your swing and making any changes. Again as they report Smash Factor there may be some info on club head speed. I know Steb knows this stuff. Steb can you please chime in. I think its still better than just eyeballing your ball flight because you can see spin let alone spin rate.
Trackman did put up their Newsletter, whcih they print out about 2x a year. Hereâs a look at the PGA Tour averages for 2009.
Club Speed Ball Speed Smash AoA V. Launch Spin Rate Max Height Land Angle Carry
Driver 112 165 1.49 -1.3 11.2 2685 31 39 269
3-wood 107 158 1.48 -2.9 9.2 3655 30 43 243
5-wood 103 152 1.47 -3.3 9.4 4350 31 47 230
Hybrid 100 146 1.46 -3.3 10.2 4437 29 47 225
3 Iron 98 142 1.45 -3.1 10.4 4630 27 46 212
4 Iron 96 137 1.43 -3.4 11 4836 28 48 203
5 Iron 94 132 1.41 -3.7 12.1 5361 31 49 194
6 Iron 92 127 1.38 -4.1 14.1 6231 30 50 183
7 Iron 90 120 1.33 -4.3 16.3 7097 32 50 172
8 Iron 87 115 1.32 -4.5 18.1 7998 31 50 160
9 Iron 85 109 1.28 -4.7 20.4 8647 30 51 148
PW 83 102 1.23 -5 24.2 9304 29 52 136
3JACK
Lag,
You can indirectly prove that you have pre and post impact acceleration by superimposing each frame of your swing onto each otherâŚkind of like the flash pic from Danteâs COAM book.
I am trying to post that pic and canâtâŚanyways, if the wedge/pie post impact is more than the wedge/pie pre impact then you have post impact acceleration.
snvu888