Wabi baby, here’s an idea of what’s up. youtube.com/watch?v=kZZecBELAH0
From what Bio has said to me his teaching can always be done in conjunction with a coach, as long as the coach is on the same page I guess?
Yes, they are irrelevant, therefore I’d rather focus on playing golf and hitting the ball straight and shooting good scores with a proper golf swing.
I’m quite happy with my kinetic link.
Bio, you are very quick to point the finger mate… I remember you saying how your company fixed Greg Norman from all his biomechanical flaws sometime in the 1990’s. Norman was #1 in the world in 1987 when I was playing on the Australian Tour… he didn’t need any fixing I can assure you. He was arguably the greatest driver of a golf ball in history. I’m not buying it for one second.
Until you come up with a definition of biomechanics that would only include your work and exclude the teachings of all others, I am going to have to disagree with you. I teach biomechanics also by proper definition. “Human body motion”… I teach my students how to properly move their bodies in the golf swing, with very intensive muscular drills, that are constantly monitored…and with a club in their hand at all times, because when you actually play golf, you have a club in your hands.
As much as your approach appears to be scientifically objective, it simply isn’t. Someone like myself comes to you for a 3D screening, and then you print out a dozen pages of graphs and numbers that of course NO ONE is going to be able to understand. That puts you in a position to interpret that data SUBJECTIVELY. According to the data, all players have issues… so you then prescribe “subjectively” what you feel is needed to correct them.
Each player is different, and needs a different biomechanical prescription, based upon your “subjective” opinion. How do we know you are right?
What if you prescribe some plyometric drill that enhances the fast twitch muscle patterns that help one part of the swing, but causes putting yips?
One thing I know we do agree on is that the golf swing is driven by the pivot, not the arms… and also the golf swing is not a quick fix situation. Agreed there.
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I don’t know Lag, maybe some holes there? Norman may well have swung the club more efficiently after screening and training etc but played worse golf, his trouble has never really been his game though, in the head it would seem? With improving movement patterns I see the gain not as necessarily just better striking, though that’s a nice thing, but more efficiency and less wear and tear on the body, less hip replacements, shoulder surgery etc on tour, maybe even less physio?
As far as subjective goes, isn’t all coaching subjective? You have the information you have and act upon it? I for one agree all the data from screening can be confusing, but I can see a correlation of the measurements to my actions, maybe my patterns being worse than someone like yourself there are larger errors that are more evident? I can also directly see how the PST I’m doing relates to improving those patterns, and I’m no physicist or mechanic of any type, just a muso.
youtube.com/watch?v=kZZecBELAH0
Thanks Stinkler,
I just took a look at the video…
First question… who is this guy? He doesn’t even introduce himself …
Is he a good player or a 10 handicap?
We were using beach balls back in the early eighties… nothing new.
An impact bag? Sounds familiar. I don’t like the way he is hitting the bag…that’s for sure.
That would not be consistent with my teachings.
No spine tilt? Not consistent with what great ball strikers do… so why practice things that are not consistent with
what great strikers do?
Bio, you have said over and over to me that your theories are a case by case study…then why have this video up on youtube
promoting these three exercises as if they are universal in nature? It goes entirely against what you are saying…
The problem I have had with Bio from day one, is that he comes across as if only he knows how to move the body. You may very well be doing all the right things with your drills and exercises. I don’t know unless I see what is going on, and even then, what I say is still subjective isn’t it? However, my subjectiveness is based upon years of experience, playing and winning on tour and so forth. Bio’s approach also becomes subjective too… Homer Kelley’s work some believe was the end of ends with regard to a scientific approach to the golf swing, yet it is filled with flawed observations.
I took a screening, on my back deck when Bio was here, and he suggested I do this right out of bed with no warm up, and no stretching… for the purpose of seeing what my flaws would be… in other words, if they are there, they would most likely expose themselves when my body would be in it’s worst possible condition… and I have always had very bad morning stiffness for at least two hours.
He shoots me with two swings with a driver right out of bed, stiff as a board… amazingly I struck both shots fairly well… and was over 100 mph with a 14 ounce 43 inch persimmon driver.
Tennis shoes on a wood deck, not steel spikes where I can root in… so that also effects things…
But to come on here and say… yeah, I’ve got Lags’ data and his swing has big issues… I mean … seriously…
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Ok, don’t want to get involved in a tiff here, and don’t feel the need to go for a side, but will put forward some points.
Bio said issues, not big issues. From what I understand about movement patterns they are just that, patterns. Warmed up or not you’ll make the same patterns as that is how you’ve (as in anyone) trained/learned how to move. Bio needs to address that though,
Chris Welch (the guy in the vid) may not be great at golf, no idea, he is at understanding the way the body moves. He works with all sports. I know Bio can play, so does Lag.
In my field there are two areas I have learned a hell of a lot.
- Breathing from a yoga book ‘the science of breath’. Those guys never heard a trumpet but Maynard Ferguson used this book and many others followed, to improve their trumpet playing no end,
2 Carmine Caruso "calisthenics for brass’. The guy was a bad saxophone player, brass players hate sax, but he developed a system that helped thousands of players. Taught some of the best in NY for many years, classical, jazz, commercial, couldn’t play a note to save himself. Huge selling book too,
You can find inspiration in many places.
Ok… sure looks like Chris Welch is teaching golf swing mechanics in this video. Backed by years of research just like Homer.
I see him telling us what to do with our feet, knees, hips, torso, arms, hands. He has a golf club in his hand, is talking about spine tilt… he’s hitting an impact bag with very questionable technique. Sounds like another non golfer holding a club who claims to have all the answers for the community in the name of scientific research.
Stinkler,
breathing, yoga, meditation, transcendental meditation, all have universal applications …no argument there… but when you get into training certain muscle groups with intensity with the idea of improving the golf swing… that needs to be seriously looked at.
Hitting and swinging by my definition, have very different protocols for how the body is going to behave and move… because the objectives are very different. Sure there will be a lot of similarities too, but you have to have a clear understanding of those objectives…
In regards to the Yoga thing, it was in direct relation to training specific muscle groups for inhalation and exhalation to be used for my practice, not in general well being. The point being breathing the most efficient way is simply that, the most efficient way. Could be used for any wind instrument. The other point being that the human body has certain ways that it moves most efficiently whether hitting a tennis ball, golf ball, baseball, casting in fishing, running, cycling, etc etc. In the video Chris is telling us what to do in training to achieve more efficient movement patterns, these patterns can then be applied to the golf swing. Yes when involved in the swing other events may take place, some spine tilt etc, here he is basically training to eliminate slack from the system which makes sense doesn’t it?
What is it about his technique when hitting the bag that is bad? He is training kinetic link, right arm thrust, core separation. There is NO BS like still head, straight left arm, FLW etc.
Yes it is backed by years of research, why do you say that like it’s a bad thing? It is pretty accurate research too, many great ball strikers been involved. Certainly the research is not just observation, plenty of accurate measuring in many ways.
I certainly don’t think it’s the be all and end or for everyone, but a reasonable guy like you should be able to see the many benefits of swinging the club without sustaining long term injury? This would benefit many, has me.
Surely too the stuff Bio teaches and the stuff you teach can both be very successful? One doesn’t exclude the other? This is not the competition? Will the program you teach suit everyone? Plenty of good golf played without your training or protocol. Doesn’t mean it’s not great!
One last thing, comments like “another non golfer holding a club who claims to have all the answers” could read “another great ball striker that doesn’t understand how he’s doing it”, neither statement means much really.
This is what happens when communications break down… very simple. I don’t know how many times I have simply asked Bio to give us a definition of
Biomechanics
Movement patterns
plyometrics
or whatever lingo he chooses to throw around. If we are working off the same terminology- definitions that is fine.
Instead, we get no definitions. Nothing.
Bio has made it clear that golf instructors including myself have no place in the biomechanical arena.
This creates endless confusion because by definition, all I teach is biomechanical. I don’t teach swing tips, quick fix mechanics at all. Never have.
Bio and I will not likely ever see eye to eye, for the simple reason that his theories exist in a secretive world with it’s own secretive definitions, and unless you speak in his linguistic tongue, there is no chance of ever being able to discuss things on a level field of open communication.
If we are talking about the golf swing… then his reply will be…
“You guys are talking mechanics, …”
so communication breaks right there…
The idea that if I am having students use impact bags , according to Bio … this is not biomechanical by his definition, therfore instant communication breakdown.
If Chris on the video uses a bag… it is ok because it is not mechanical… so again …because of lack of definition… another communication breakdown.
What if I don’t prescribe to the exact way he is hitting the bag? Is it ok for a student to do both ways? I say no.
But I am willing to explain my position in plain English. My students will know what I am talking about because we are very very strict about how bag work is done… very detail oriented. You don’t just hit the bag. So because Bio doesn’t understand the details of what I am doing… communication breakdown.
I contend that what we are doing is biomechanical movement patterns. We are moving our body, our core muscles, and doing so in a repetitive pattern. But again, we don’t have an agreed definition, and according to Bio, this does not constitute a movement pattern.
Stinkler, I am very pleased you are learning and doing great… wonderful… however, if you were one of my students, I would really need to see what you are doing to make certain it is compatible with what we would be doing. If you are using impact bags… or other biomechanical drills, and so forth.
For instance, if you were prescribed a weighted club… anything over 20 ounces I would object. Swinging any kind of stick or similar object that does not have the same “out of shaft line” sweet spot differential, there would be an issue.
I suppose a lot of the never ending conflict has stemmed from the fact the Bio believes Mechanics and Biomechanics should be trained separately, while I believe they should be trained at the same time in unison.
With the conflicting or lack or proper definitions… we end up spinning in circles around the same topics that for the most part we agree upon. I know our swing theories in general are not much different.
He feels I need to study biomechanical research for 5 years to have a clue, and I feel he needs to know how the biomechanical pressures created in the golf swing affect swing mechanics directly, swing plane, club path and ultimately ball flight.
We have I’m sure learned some things from one another, and I remember an interesting discussion we had about how the left knee and hip, and torso can work post impact in different ways.
I think differences in opinion keep forums interesting… but endless claims that "you don’t understand my definitions, or you can’t possibly understand what I am saying unless you have “x’ number of years of research under you belt” isn’t helpful.
Does anyone else want to piss on my life as well…
From day one I was taught to play golf by a TGM instructor and was taught to hit… I played high level golf and was heading on tour until a work accident ended my career. I have taught golf for 10 years following homers work…
After spending 4 years in rehabilitation learning to walk, talk read and write again… I tried to play golf again and shot 108… I couldn’t hit the ball. and i was in pain when I played … I went to coaches according to the boys my mechanics were fine and on video they were right they looked fine
… My issues was my body wouldn’t allow me to make the move I needed to make my swing work…
I searched and found a new world… biomechanics… I got tested and discovered I had biomechanical break downs, I had a poor kinetic link… I began to train my neuromechnics and movement patterns… with in 9 months I shot 69 and now I can shot par and below.
My mechanics were fine I had poor biomechaincs…
I defined the difference between biomechanics and mechanics… everytime I try to comment some adds their opinion or belief or preception so what cahnce do I have to be able to define biomechanics or explain… in biomechanics you have no beliefs or opinions you go on what measured science tells you…
I’m not going to get into arguments and debates about biomechanics… or definitions I don’t really care to be honest…
we are training neuromechanics and you can seriously mess someones movement patterns up and injure them if you don’t know what your doing… This is why we test and we pre test our exercises and training programs we make up individually for each athlete… It seriously business…
Motorskill training only effects a golfswing,
Neuromechanics how your body moves can effects daily living very serious stuff.
I have mentioned some of the research fields involved and many years of research from many of researchers in their specialized fields teaming up in biomechanics research …
I’m not going to defend myself… I don’t really care what peoples opinions are or beliefs are… all i go is by pure measured research and data… in black and white from testing and research, these are the facts in black and white… You can’t have a belief or an opinion in this field…
I have no beliefs or opinions all I can go on is what measure science tells us in black and white…
You don’t survive in our game if you don’t get results … everything is measured… big companies like TPI have tried to crush us and failed… simple fact is we get results and the boys have been for the last 20 years…
If it wasn’t for researchers in biomechanics, ground forces and the squence a body moves in a golfswing, would have never been proven… or understand how the muscles function in motion …we would all be still guessing, arguing and debating… So any one else want to piss on my life go ahead …
Hello ABS. Congrats on the site Lag.
Bio - who is pissing on who here? You have said that Lag’s swing has issues, and that he doesn’t teach properly - you imply that he is doing harm! You express yourself strongly, so if someone comes back at you, I think you have to suck it up.
As for the video, it is interesting, seems insightful and also seems grounded in serious research and thought.
But Chris’s right hand is facing towards him as he comes into the bag, which is going to give him serious OTT if he tries it on a golf ball!!!
Beeneez,
Again here is an issue… you are thinking about mechanics or swing… I didn’t comment on lag’s teaching or his golf swing…
We are talking how about the power generation process of how your body creates speed… not plane lines… hitting or swinging… not how lag teaches or his mechanics…
I’m implying really or is that your perception to who you want to see it??? Don’t put words in my mouth… grill me if you like if I wrote this down and did say that… I didn’t and to accuse me I implied from your own developed perception… give me a break… seriously …
My point proven exactly you guys can’t separate human motion and swing mechanics… With out a golf club in your hand how does the body move or create speed.
Who said Chris’s video is about mechanics… not us… again you add mechanics… he was demonstrating a training exercise to train a particular movement pattern… each is a separate exercise…
In your opinion you believe it cause OTT… who said we were training a golfswing… isn’t he talking about movement patterns and teaching your body how to move… did he say this will help you get on plane … don’t think so… that’s the coaches job…
Beeneez not offense do you really know what causes OTT moves ? please don’t tell me it’s your hands coming across the plane line?
OTT is caused by the lower body spinning out and a lack of ground forces… The lower body spins out left… the upper body follows suit and your arms have no choice to come across the plane line… don’t believe me look at an OTT guy on video
So if you have good lower body mechanics or a stabilized lower body how can Chris’s video cause OTT…
This is the whole issue here you guys thinking mechanically about what we do… we purely looking at how the human body moves or creates speed… the power generation process… Forget about plan lines… hitting and swinging or what ever method you like… what we do only compliments a coaches teaching or someone’s mechanics… what we do isn’t going to make you worse or going to effect the mechanical out comes your going to achieve…
Really this why i say you guys won’t understand unless you can forget about swing mechanics and look at biomechanics with an open mind your not going to grasp or understand human motion or biomechanics… understanding the most efficient way the body wants to move or create speed… it’s neuromechanics… Your body as I have said is designed to move a certain way and will want to move this particular way, because this is how we are designed to move… Our body knows how to create speed within these boundaries… our body knows how to produce speed to run or walk or move…
Sometimes we don’t move as effective as we should… so we need to train our body… once your body earns this becomes programed…because the body has found a more efficient way to produce speed moving the way it’s designed to…
Unless you can look at biomechanics without a swing mechanics your never going to understand… your mechanical thought won’t allow to you…
Gerry,
If you are still around here… it would be interesting to know your take on equipment, or more exacting, and if you feel the swing itself has changed (in a general sense) by moving to lighter, bigger and more forgiving clubheads.
The hickory age seemed to have certain distinguishing characteristics, differing from the persimmon and steel age, and now into the jumbo titanium age, perimeter weighting and so forth.
Golf course architecture is busy trying to keep up, and where are we all heading with this?
Hello biomechanic,
Maybe there are ABS students who want to learn more about your evaluation and training program. May I ask for your help with this?
If a student is not in your area for evaluation and training, can you assign other people to do the evaluation and training? (I am confused by the Chris video as to who signs students up and who trains them. Does Chris work for you?)
What is the procedure for signing up to get evaluated and trained by you?
Are there any physical conditions that would not allow a student to take your biomechanical training?
How much time does a student need to set aside to do the training?
Does a student need to stop working with the ABS modules while doing your training? (I am trying to figure out if doing the ABS modules while taking your training will confuse a student about whether it is your training or the ABS modules that helps the student. Also, I wonder about the possibility of interference between your training and ABS modules that will reduce the effectiveness of your training and/or the ABS modules. How would you describe any danger of interference?)
Golfers wonder if the biomechanical training helps golf accuracy or distance or both and hope that biomechanical training will do that. Do students get a description of the biomechanical changes your training prescription will accomplish that will give them more accuracy and/or distance? (I guess many students, like me, are not trained to understand biomechanic terms, so any description or explanation would need to be in everyday language and written out for them to remember it. In case their memory fades later, do they get a description hard copy they can refer to later?)
After receiving training, if a student gets injured while working or playing, will the student need to get a new evaluation and new training or is the original training permanent?
How do the payment plan and terms of agreement work?
How much does it cost for the evaluation and for the training?
Thank you in advance for helping us to better understand and appreciate how your biomechanical training program works.
Regarding Biomechanics,
Here’s a quote from Peter Ralston (1978 World Champion Full-Contact Martial Arts Tournament in the Republic of China):
“Regarding the Golf Swing: As in any physical activity, the principles and mechanics apply. I imagine the goal here is to shift the weight in such a way that the power of the weight transfer is applied to the ball. One recommendation I can offer is to consider whether the body is “behind” the ball, and so compressed into it, or if it is “losing energy” by whipping past the ball rather than into it. It might be possible to include the use of intrinsic strength, but you would need to be aware of the exact position of the club in relation to your body throughout your swing, and “trace” a path through your whole body so that the weight and momentum of the club is not only “backed” by the body but can compress into the body all the way down to the pressure on the bottoms of your feet. This will also increase stability. Make sure the whole body is unified and feel the connection between the swing and the feet.”
Peter Ralston has never played Golf!!!
This was his brush off answer to a guy changing the subject during a lecture on what he defined as Intrinsic Strength.
I would save your money getting a Biomechanics screening and spend it instead learning with a true and proven Martial Arts Master. There’s hundreds of years of innovation and tradition regarding how the body 'functions" to produce power without computers, creating results.
My guess, it would improve your physical fitness, but I bet the training will also improve your Kinetic Link and therefore the efficiency of your Golf Swing.
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Here’s another by Douglas Lee (Tai Chi Master)
“Strength is rooted in the feet, launched from the legs, dominated by the waist, and transmitted through the hands. This is the law of effortless power.”
I believe another non-golfer that easily can explain the Kinetic Link or body sequencing needed for any type of sport, especially Golf.
I disagree Wabisabi, in fact I believe my training in martial arts, especially because it started as a kid, has made golf so difficult.
The two main applications of biomechanics to any sport are deriving an efficient action and/or to do so safely.
But efficiency in different sports means different things. Martial arts requires a different compromise between power, speed and accuracy to what golf requires, not to mention a completely different action. Martial arts has a longer impact for instance and requires more power, golf has nearly an instantaneous impact and requires speed and accuracy. Biomechanically that means martial arts might favor simultaneous segmental movements, body backing punch, whereas golf sequential segmental movements, progressively building speed. I was never hurt by skinny tall dudes or kids in martial arts, but they sure out-drive me in golf. Even different martial arts require different balances of power, speed and accuracy.
Golf has no concern for concealing a strike, being left in a compromising position, sustaining damage to the striking implement or moving targets like martial arts does. They’re just different and the mystic behind martial arts makes us look there for everything. I believe martial arts makes you very hit-centric in golf.
I also believe golfers home in on an biomechanically efficient swing by beating thousands of balls. Efficient as in for scoring, not necessarily long term injury prevention.
I recently did an interview with 16 time world champion martial artist Bill Jones including titles in nunchucks (chained sticks) , and had a very interesting discussion which I will be publishing on this site soon. Steb makes a good point about the different types of martial arts…
These are Oriental 'secrets’and explain why a 120 pound man can make pork chops out of someone who is double their weight. Looking forward to the interview.
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Post by lagpressure » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:06 pm
LAGS… Yes I’m still around, from time to time. Present topics hold no interest for me, I’ve spent too many thousands of hours, over too many decades, to slide backwards into the quagmire now. My sole purpose was to make it progressively more and more simple, not more and more complex, and I have no intention of ever being involved in any activity or discussion that makes this game any more frustrating or difficult than it has become.
You people who claim the mantel of teacher seem to forget that there may be a great many who tune into your ‘discussions’ who cannot break 90, cannot even hope to break a 100. That’s why I won’t post in the current trend of topics. I genuinely respect the fact that this is your forum, not mine. About three-four weeks ago my wife and I were in Rome and we actually stood in a couple of the forums that were the heart of ancient Rome, I know what ‘forum’ means!
I’ll catch up with you sometime, soon enough. There may be some things that happen, in the not too distant future, that may toss a few quite bloodthirsty foxes/ coyotes into the collective, protected inner sanctums of golf’s protected chicken coops. We shall see!
Personally I place a great deal of stock by the old adage; What has not been said can be said, at any later time, what has not been done can be done at any later time, but what has been done and what has been said, can never be undone. “There be any a slip twixt the cup and the lip!”
If you guys want to go where you go then go for it. But please consider those others who will suffer (perhaps) irrepairable golf damage, and even pack their tents and disappear into some other wasteland where golf is not considered. LAGS…why not set a sub-forum aside where you can better serve those who may wish to trust in you, who really do need all of the help that you can give them. Protect them from the ego driven bullshit and gobbledygook.
As for BIOMECHANIC; well I think the pseudonym that he chose for himself when he joined (biomechanic) should have triggered your self defense instincts, it certainly got my attention. Why would you call yourself …biomechanic… as your user/ identity name, if you were really looking for a ‘forum’, a level playing field…“Look out you plebeian shit, I’ve arrived. I’m a God appointed and God anointed …BIOMECHANIC!!!” WOW. I couldn’t find anyone with the psuedonam “neurologist” or “physiologist” or “anatomist” or “physicist”, not a ‘‘psychologist’’ or ‘‘psychiatrist’’, not a ‘‘virtuoso’’, not even a mere ‘‘doctor of medicine’’ or a ‘‘surgeon’’ to be found.
I noticed you had a bitch about people ''pissing on your life". Surely you didn’t expect anything else when considering the way that you choose to treat others!
Gerry