Let's Talk Lag's Golf Machine

Gerry,

Actually I do have a private area of this site (sub forum) that is not visible to the public here, that is very active and is that exact place you speak of… a sanctuary away from the madness of online golf forum open discussion. We do all our work in there, and students learn from one another also being able to share and discuss feelings, sensations, or other lightbulb moments.

This thread just didn’t want to die on the hands of one man’s intentions, so it now lives here in peace and often turmoil… :open_mouth:
It seems to gravitate toward deeper discussions about golf, or technique or controversy that what you might find on other golf forums… for better or for worse.

In the nearly 5000 posts since it’s inception, topics have pretty much run the gamut… and I’m not a big fan of intellectual censorship on such a site as was the case at it’s former home.

I thought it was interesting that Mac O’Grady finished 5th last week in the Australian Senior Open at Royal Perth, playing Roger MacKay’s persimmons in his honor, and a set of 1974 Hogan Apex blades. Mac is not known for being the best putter, so I would imagine that he struck it well enough tee to green with the old gear to win the event. I found it an inspiring story.

Anyway, Sam Randolph and Vic Wilk said to say hi… as you had spent some time with them in Texas I believe… a few years back.

Private forum…thing is, a guy like me would never run into a thing like this. You just have to trust people and accept that for every negative interaction something fantastic like a discussion between golfers from totally different backgrounds and knowledge bases can take place.

Gerry, I’ve just bought your book on Aussie E-Bay and it is shipping to me in Ireland. Can’t wait to read it, have had some excellent results with one or two things I’ve gleaned from your stuff here and on the ISG forum.

Basically, I’ve boiled it down to keeping the right hand facing the sky for as long as possible deep into the downswing…until the rotation of the arm left shoulder/pivot forces the hands to roll over and release. This is great leap forward from misinterpreations of ‘hit down’ and ‘supinate’.

On the broader point, amateur swing theorising is a favourite hobby of mine (as Lag may recall) and it has given me a lot of fun for the last couple of years. I’ve been wrong, a little arrogant/over-confident/stupid every now and again (though occasionally insightful I like to think as well) :blush: …talking and thinking about golf and the swing is such a blast, an amazing journey. I’m even finally learning a thing or two about humility…!

That’s a long winded way of saying that to have forums like this, you sometimes have to put up with nonsense.

Golf is a humbling game for all at some point… even Tiger will someday have to realize this lesson. Ben Hogan only won one more event after his epic 1953 year, that being the Colonial in 1959. He did play a limited schedule, but still did complete to some degree until 1967.

I suppose if one cares about their own legacy in the game, even around the local club or just your own personal scorecard, it seems to be more about what you did when you were “on” than what you did at your worst. In 1983 I made the quarter finals of the US Amateur only losing that match in sudden death, as well as picking up a win on the collegiate circuit. What I don’t think about as much is my final round at The Sierra Nevada Open at the Edgewood Golf course, playing in a pro tournament as an amateur I don’t think I hit a fairway all day, the rough was about 8 inches high,and I must have had 6 three putts and two or three OB’s. I carded a 92 and tried on every shot! It was probably the hardest thing I ever had to do in golf, sign the card and see that go up on the scoreboard rather than withdraw. It was a real lesson learned. After that I tried not to put self imposed boundaries on my play or scoring. I found that the more I could be comfortable shooting high, it actually helped me shoot low on good days. My college coach used to call it “your comfort zone”. If you feel uncomfortable shooting at lot higher than normal, you might find yourself feeling uncomfortable shooting a lot lower than normal. I worked on just allowing myself to shoot what ever the day brings… high low or anything in between.

I like that attitude Lag, to feel comfortable shooting whatever the day brings. Thanks for posting that.

golf.com/golf/instruction/ar … -3,00.html

I ran across this article- I have heard of this guy but didn’t know what he taught. Isn’t what he is saying the anti-golf swing that is the evilness that creeps in and needs to be avoided like the plague.

There are about 5 pages. this is excerpt from page 3 listed above. will try to add photo below also of ‘the magic move’

  1. MAKE THE MAGIC MOVE
    Now the fun part! About two or three feet before your hands reach impact, assertively rotate them toward the target. Imagine you’re gripping a screwdriver and turning it counterclockwise. This closes the clubface, generating big-time power.

It’s important to note that you can turn your hands too early (you’ll hit a hook) or too late (a push), but you can’t turn them too much. So really go after it with an athletic motion. Also, your lower body should stay quiet: excessive hip clearing and swiveling is wasted motion. The legs should support your upper body, not drive the swing.
YOUR VIEW
Take a look at this swing sequence from a first-person angle (go right to left…sorry southpaws). The open clubface (far right) closes through impact; the toe should almost point to the target (far left) a couple of feet after impact.
MMyourview2_150.jpg

I like the first half, but the second I would avoid like the swine flu. He pretty much says it too… if you do it too early a hook,
to late a slice… Anytime you have the clubface moving out of sequence so drastically with the shoulder rotation you are bringing in a timing element that doesn’t need to be there. That move screams pivot stall and disconnect. I don’t want to have to be that talented.

I remember seeing that earlier in this thread a while back… and have a vague memory of a bit of discussion about it. Maybe jeffman liked that move?

Hi Lag,

This is not the first time it has happened at ISG, and wont be the last. I refuse to post anything on ISG anymore, and have not done so in many years. The only reason I ever poked my head back there was my coming across the LTLGM thread.

Keep it up.

Cheers,
Hooky

Gerry,

I spent some time this evening reading some of your earlier postings…

Of course it would be difficult to live without ritual… the sun rises and sets everyday here in SF, so it’s hard to ingore, but
I know I fell prey to over ritualizing during my years on tour. At the time I was convinced beyond a doubt that the more I could keep things the same on tour, the better I would play. It would start in the morning with how I would prepare for my round, what I would eat, the order of how I would warm up, how soon I would arrive at the golf course, what club I would start to warm up with and on and on. My rituals took a lot of time.

One of the best things for my golf was not playing for many years. It was quite freeing to not enslave myself with endless rituals. I’ve been enjoying playing with different sets of clubs every round, different balls, intentionally playing holes in different ways and so forth. Although I’m sure I have plenty of rituals still going on, one nice ritual to remove was that of practicing off the course. I no longer hit balls. I hit “one” ball… off my back deck, then take that shot shape to the course, and just go with it… I realized that as soon as I rake over a second ball, I then am “working on something” I realized that only one ball is needed to tell me what my day’s tendency will be. I only get one chance at it, that first look at a shot shape without compensation from a previous shot. Every day is a new different day, and feeling within my body…so rather than fight that reality, I don’t anymore, I embrace it.

I did use intense ritual to build my golf swing, and to some degree now to maintain it. But I do all that off the course.

Anyway, a few thoughts on the subject…

How do you feel ritual is beneficial or not so beneficial in the golf fishbowl?

Lag, what happens to all those balls that you hit off your deck? Do you ever go and get them? :confused:

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I have a few distinct targets down in the canyon, so I know where they are. I go down there from time to time and pick them up… if the weeds get to high, the goats come in the spring and mow the entire canyon, so I can find most any that I missed!

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Lag, do you agree or disagree with these definitions of hitting and swinging?

youtube.com/watch?v=0gVp6F6jM78

I really believe Lag’s idea of hitting and swinging - right field V’s around left- to be much easier to understand and work and comprehend and teachable

This guy does mention a couple of good things…especially about pulling the left and pushing the right.
I am pretty certain someone in this thread;s last life at the other site said you couldn’t do both! - that you could NOT pull and push. This TGM guy clearly states you can!!
Well, Lag showed it to me in easy terms with a visual. Maybe he can touch on it one day. It IS pretty much imperative for force that we pull and push. What Lag showed me proves it and from my own swing experience that’s exactly what it feels like. This guy in the youtube vid talks about that which is good.
Again though you can see once impact comes- it’s all over. He talks about right arm and shows the straightening dump at the ball. Not one bit of talk about post impact.–and that really is a huge key to golf that gets left out. He shows the bent right elbow as a hitter pattern coming down but at impact it all seems to straighten again

The gentleman is Michael Jacobs, a GSED.
He is a Ben Doyle protege which explains all that twomasters has pointed out.

Gerry,
The problem is how one wants to interpret words and the meaning of words. We all have different understanding of words.
You can write one word and six different people can have six different interpretations of what that particular word means .
I may not be the best writer in the world although those who know me know I have a good intention at heart and out to truly offend anyone.
Although to best honest coming from my death bed having priest praying for me twice, staring death in the eyes, not being able to walk, not being able to speak properly and forgetting how to read and write. To having to learn to walk again, speak properly again, read and right again. Then having to learn to play golf again to get back to high level.
I’m proud of myself and I have nothing to prove to anyone.
No it ain’t a sob story these were the cards dealt to me and that’s life.

You can judge me as you please that’s fine.

If someone is going to bastardise the field I’m in and add beleifs and mislead people with incorrect information, I will make a stand and tell you how it is black is black. I don’t want our field bastardised like the golf industry has been, with belief systems and opinion or ego’s. I won’t tolerate it.

I’m not saying people are stupid and can’t understand our field. As I have said unless you can look at our field without a mechanical mind you will not grasp our field. We are looking at human motion. How the human body moves and how the human body creates speed.
Not from a mechanically point of view… throw mechanics out the window and throw the club away and purely look at human motion only.

As I have said over and over we aren’t looking at mechanics…
Human body is designed to create speed a certain way and the human body is designed to move and function anatomically a certain way…
Why fight this ? Why try and go against this? why not try and move the way your body is designed to move or function?

I’m not sure why we all think golf is so unique and special… The human body still wants to move they way it’s designed to… People can believe and think what they like although measured science and research proves other wise.
When someone researches and tests disease, do they add belief or opinion or do they go on what science test results presents to them?

Tell me this Gerry how does someone know how the human body is moving and provide training to someone unless you know their physical limitations are ?

how their body creates speed ? how do you you work this out with out measuring hips speeds,upper body speeds and arms speeds?

Is their body creating the right sequence to create speed or power generation process? how can you tell with out measuring each body segment with biomechanics ?

how they are moving in motion ? Video can’t measure in space how do you know what ground reaction forces they are creating? How much the are lateral bending left or right of the spine and how much force this is putting on your spine? How much twist people are putting on their spine with out biomechanics?

How and if their muscles are loading and firing in their golf swing? how can you measure this with out measuring using biomechanics
Are they using the right muscle groups? how can you tell with out measuring?

Are these muscle groups loading and firing in the right sequence and timing?

How do you really know do we know if we are truly being honest with ourselves?

The only way your going to truly know with out guessing is to measure athletes with biomechaincs ?

I agree that in this video, this is TGM’s version of hitting and swinging. However, it’s an incomplete version because it fails to define the role of the hands.

The hands (wrists) have the ability to fire actively and become motorized hinges… or they can remain passive as just hinges.
If the hands actively uncock and rotate with force, that changes the path of the clubhead, pulling it out of orbit and re directing it more left and around the body. If the body cooperates, and is trained to support this type of active protocol, you have what I call a pivot driven hit, which is not included in the teaching of TGM, although it arguably the most sophisticated way of striking a golf ball, and most certainly used by Ben Hogan.

To exclude such a technique leaves TGM an incomplete work.

The version I like of hitting and swinging puts the definition upon the hands, not the right arm… You "hit with the hands or you don’t. This definition is consistent with what Ben Hogan talks about in his book, and also Sam Snead. Also with most other golf books written by great players. Anytime you see, “the hands do nothing” then they are talking swinging. When you read "I wish I had 3,5, or 50 right hands you know they are talking about “hitting”. Mac O’Grady and his MORAD approach describes swinging as “out to right field” … and hitting as “around the corner” … which is also consistent with this version.

So I don’t think I am making anything up here for my convenience… nor am I presenting any “new” information.

biomechanic » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:29 am

 I'm not getting into any heart rending sob stories or exchanges of mud slinging with you, that's just an absurd waste of time. OK you struck a bad patch or two in life and you state you have beaten that, that is commendable, I applaud that. 
However I recall a very wise old saying..”I once complained because I had no shoes, then I met a man who had no feet.” I'm the wrong person to wave the “poor me” banner in front of.  I've seen too much and I have seen too many who have risen above their challenges with displays of courage and determination that few could begin to imagine. To them I bow my head in respectful and genuine salute!
I have no cause to judge you, I don't know you, you have not inspired me with any great desire to want to get to know you.
I'm a little confused here. Please explain why “your field”, your biomechanics, holds sole and total domain over all other fields of inquiry into the search for facts to answer questions relating to human motion! I'm serious. 
quote..”If someone is going to bastardise the field I'm in and add beleifs and mislead people with incorrect information, I will make a stand and tell you how it is black is black. I don't want our field bastardised like the golf industry has been, with belief systems and opinion or ego's. I won't tolerate it.” (Copied and pasted, your spelling, your grammar, not mine)

“You won’t tolerate it.” Sunshine, you have pissed me off and that in itself is an accomplishment. I try very hard to be tolerant but your arrogance needs to be brought to task.
I hate, with a passion, the zealots and the missionaries who demand conversion to their causes and beliefs, at any cost. More human blood has been shed, more hardship, devastation and deprivation has been inflicted on humanity by religious and political ‘missionaries’ than by any other cause in our brief but often sad history.
You have no more right to your opinion, and your expression of it, than anyone else has to theirs.

Allow me to demonstrate my point; we have two levers coupled together with a free hinge. A pulling force is applied to an insertion point in close proximity to the secondary lever, in this application, which pulls it, through an arc or motion, towards a point of origin sited on the primary lever. Could you agree that this would be a ‘mechanical event’ and not a biomechanical event. Could you also agree that such an event must comply with The Laws of Leverage and The Laws of Motion.
We have ‘levers’ involved under the Laws of Leverage and we have motion involved within the Laws of Motion. It is a quantifiable and qualifiable mechanical event.
If the levers translate to bones, the hinge to the human elbow and the pulling force is muscle contraction why is still not definable and understandable as a simple mechanical event? If two or more such systems act together towards a single purpose then it becomes a complex mechanical event.
It seems that you experienced some form of illness or injury that deprived you of the ability to walk (you state that you had to learn to walk again). Why couldn’t you walk? Was it because no electro-chemical impulses could reach your leg muscles to force them into contractile states? Didn’t you state in an earlier post that you whiz-kids trained each muscle according to your specific, identified needs. If muscles have memory why did your leg muscles ‘forget’ how to function? If they don’t have memory, how can your train them. If they can repeat learned skills where is the memory of that learning and skill stored? I know, do you?
Perhaps you meant that, by continuous, controlled repetition you could induce a muscle to ‘fire on a given command to achieve a very specific purpose’. However you couldn’t consciously control your leg muscles to move your legs, so it must have been the subconscious, the very deep subconscious, that could no longer cause your leg muscles to work. Was that because of damage or impediment to the associated nerve pathways, or, if they were intact, it must have been a deep seated problem way down in the subconscious brain.
In the golf swing the vast majority of the 206 bones contained within the human body move, in some way or another, in both the upswing and the downswing. Since human motion is really a sequential flow of bone movement, acting as levers within the confines of both the Laws of Leverage and Motion, and the vast preponderance of all skeletal muscle is involved, in one critical way or another, are you seriously suggesting that each of these muscles can be specifically and individually trained to perform it’s function to higher capability?
Are you suggesting that this can be accomplished within the time constraints proven to be involved in the entire golf swing and the downswing itself? Are you saying that this can be achieved through conscious control from the conscious levels of the brain?
Have you ever heard of pre-programming, any idea what it means and how it works, it seems not!
If you insist, we can visit the sequential flow of bones, as levers, within (say) the downswing and I will demand from you the identification of each lever/ bone precisely within its critical role in the entire sequence of events and I will ask you to identify the precise range of movement, rotation, etc that it was required to make, and did make, to achieve it’s fundamental position and purpose in order that the next bone, attached to it, could commence and eventually complete its assigned tasks and onwards the flow of sequential motion goes.
I will demand that you identify the satisfaction of Newton’s Laws of Motion within every muscle contraction and subsequent bone movement. I will further demand that you identify every factor involved in the radial acceleration, not only of the clubhead, but of every bone that acts as a lever within the entire flow of motion.
I can do that without reference to your cocked up version of biomechanics, can you do so through your perceived wisdom?
The true science of biomechanics I have the greatest respect for and hope for, relative to the future of mankind.
Before you throw your handkerchief on the bar room floor and turn your glass upside down to challenge the bar, you (might) be wise to look around you. Sitting quietly, there may be someone who may cause you to wish that you had gone straight home to your mummy, or to the ice cream parlor, instead of the bar. I’m speaking metaphorically of course, but certainly not tongue in cheek.
Gerry

WOW!

If my ass were in a sling, and I needed to pick between Bio or Gerry to defend my rights, my muscles would be contracting to move my lever to pull the lever for the latter. Great post Gerry.

Flop

Beez…The very first point that I made when I posted in iseekgolf was that I have no intention whatever of telling people what to think or how to think, my only purpose is to encourage all people TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES.
I have never asked anyone to believe what I say. If it causes you to seriously ponder on the content, check the validity of points raised and proofs offered and assists you to make your own determinations, I have achieved my purpose.
The critical danger that concerns me is that people are so easily swayed by rhetoric and pseudo-scientific bullshit and gobbledygook. Even worse, they are far too easily impressed by/ convinced by those who they see as superior in performance. “If Billy Dimpledick has own a US major he must know what he is doing”.
If he really does know how and why then why is it that Billy employs and pays a lot of money to his coach, (usually nowadays also) his Sports Psychologist and his caddy. Why has he had three coaches in the last four years and three different sports shrinks? We won’t even mention the putting coach, short game guru, personal trainer et al!
Bobby Jones, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, Byron Nelson, Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods have all written instructional golf books, as well as countless others who have won everything, from the Tin Pot Open to Majors. Why not do a comparison study on each and see how much accord and commonality you actually come up with. I have, and it’s quite fascinating how little they actually all agree upon!
I live for challenge, I’m a puzzle obsessive, I love debate but within rules and guidelines. I have become a serious Google addict with the entire world of information at my fingertips.
Years ago I had an associate who told me that his son wanted to be a fighter pilot but was struggling badly with physics, which was fundamental to such a career. He asked me if I could possibly help.
His son was a young man that I could respect so I agreed. He and I just chatted about his sporting ventures. Cricket and golf were very high on his list. I asked him to put some really serious work in for me the following week and then we could chat again and he would have to tell me every Law of Motion and Law of Leverage involved in swinging both a cricket bat and a golf club. I also wanted him to (say) look at a car or a push bike in motion and work out all the laws relating to everything that was happening. I wanted him to study birds flying and things falling.
We didn’t have the second chat, we didn’t have to. He had suddenly become obsessed with a new understanding and love for physics where it had always filled him with dread. He achieved a position in the top 3% in the state in his finals. And he achieved his dream.
Use forums like this to learn to stimulate your own curiosity but don’t accept what is said. Learn how to check it out for yourself. You have a computer and a keyboard, go for it. You also have a brain that must be exercised, stimulated and driven harder than you would work on muscle development at your gym.
I agree, to have forums like this you have to learn to put up with a lot of bullshit and gibberish but the onus comes back directly on the reader/ receiver of that information, it’s up to you to sort the odd genuine keeper from the cross section of test it and toss it.
Good luck
Gerry

Thanks Gerry.

Maybe if you have time you could share a thought or two on bone structure, specifically the left arm. Anyone else, I’ll be glad to hear from too.

OK: I have diagnosed a too-straight left arm for myself. As a good, law abiding trainee golfer, I always did my best to keep it really straight…“Not working? Keep it even STRAIGHTER!”

But after reading a couple of things and doing some experimental tipping around in my parents’ back garden (sorry for the divots folks :blush: )…, I had a bit of a lightbulb moment: no effort to straighen the left arm - which left it looking pretty bent - which helped me deliver the clubhead crisply through the ball with sand wedge and pitching wedge. (I had been pulling short chips and pitches).

Later on, I took your advice to heart and did a practical experiment: basically, I put a 3.5kg dumbell in my left hand and hung it down in front of me in a golf posture. Observation: my left arm retained a bend of several degrees at the left elbow, even though I was allowing the weight to hang and making no effort to keep it ‘up’.

An important step forward for me? We’ll see: I’ve had many false dawns etc before! But this felt like a good lesson in both golf and learning.

Anyways, thanks for your great posts again.

Cheers
BC

Lag,

One of my friend went to Japan and took lessons from Mac lately…he was allowed to take video during lesson…regarding cp and cf release:-

CP - around the corner
CF - out to the right field

With your information, is that CP = hitting and CF = swinging?

Also, Homer stated “…without the Key of Educated Hands per Chapters 4 and 5, more information only means more confusion.” Is that what you are talking about?