on page 19 (last page of chapter 2) of ben hogan’s “power golf” he writes:
"While the United States Gold Associations restricts the number of clubs to fourteen most professionals use sixteen in all tournaments except USGA sponsored events and the Masters’ Tournament, which is also a fourteen club affair. When I compete in a tournament in which the number of clubs is restricted I make my selection on the basis of the clubs which will be the most useful to me during that particular tournament.
"For instance, during the 1947 Masters’ Tournament at Augusta, Georgia, I left my double-duty niblick in my locker. But before the tournament I spent a good deal of time practicing chipping with my sand wedge in order to make up for the absence of that particular club from my bag.
so, the rule change had to happen after 1947. the book was published in 1948, so it was probably after that. also, a page back (page 18), he talks about how most english golfers did not use or understand the value of the sand wedge. and that remark was referencing the winter of 1946 and 1947.
i´m trying to figure out what Lag means with “laying it off in the depth of the third dimension”. So i assume when i look at a golfer DTL - horizontal (going towards the target) and vertical (skywards) are 2dimensional and the 3rd dimension is whats going behind his back or in front of him? Now the definition of laying it off as i know it is when the club(shaft) on top point left of the target instead of parallel to the target line).
Now my attempt at a conclusion - when we lay it off in the depth of the third dimension, we keep the club in the laid off position from the top during the drop or free ride down (which would give us a flat entry into P3)?
Swing plane is one of the most corrupted concepts for both players and instructors. Somehow over the years, the idea that the club must be swung on a flat swing plane back and forth from address to finish is beyond absurd. No different than demanding that a baseball pitcher’s arm should not move off a flat two dimensional plane or path… it is simply false.
Even if you think of the swing plane in the two dimensional sense, and that the club must stay “on plane” at the top… it is only going to point at the target when it is exactly parallel to the ground…at that tiny exact moment. As soon as you move past parallel, it’s going to point right of the target, and if you don’t make it to parallel it’s going to point left of the target. It’s an inclined plane.
If you don’t understand this, think as if you’re holding a rifle at the top of the swing, then trying to hit the pin with precision accuracy. Not going to happen.
It’s simply a terrible idea to be worrying about pointing the shaft at the target at the top of the swing.
Now as far as laying the shaft off left … or moving into the 3rd dimension… this certainly is a good idea “if” you have the proper protocols to “deal” with this. You are going to need to understand the function and role of forearm rotation.
Pronation, supination, what goes up must come down… what rotates open must rotate back. Can you do it? If you rotate your forearms enough… you will find yourself laid off at the top. Can you get it back? I can assure you one thing… CF is not going to do it for you.
How many right hands do you need? Hogan said three. Some might need more… some less… but this needs to be understood, and you simply can’t load it up more than your ability to deliver it.
A lot of this has to do with hitting or swinging. And if you are hitting… how well are you doing this?
The problem with seeking certain positions in your swing… the one you are using to play shots with… is that there is
a lot of “if this… then that”. Now when doing drills… that is a different story. You should be working into a specific direction if you want to improve. But simply trying to copy or hit certain positions in the swing because you saw your favorite player do it… needs to be handled with kid gloves.
When the hitting hands fire for full shots, do you always feel the release of them as non-automatic, or are there times when the feel approaches an automatic release?
Also found a neat apparatus for feeling flat gear and its effect on takeaway rolling and how to handle that from the top. Some time ago True Temper had a shaft flex measuring device called The Determinator. It wasn’t around for long for many reasons, but the other day I stumbled across the one that I have. It is about 44" long and has a very pronounced curved sole…it looks like curvature from the bottom of a rocking chair.
I suspect the curvature was done as an attempt to allow a wide array of lie angles when shaft fitting. Anyway, I’ve been rocking that 44" “club” back almost onto the heel and I suspect the lie angle at that point is maybe 35-40 degrees. It gets around and behind quickly and forces the correct movements from the top as there is simply no room to get steep. RR
Great question RR! Could it be that the after a while even the ‘non-automatic’ release of the hands begins to feel ‘automatic’? (Swing DNA stuff…) Or is this not what you mean?
I have been scratching my head about this question also. E.g. if i dont do anything with hands, just holding the angle and open clubface as long as possible, then after impact i have an angled hinge and i cut it left. When i get a “straight” ball with this action - there had to be some kind of proper release going on at some point, otherwise i would have blocked it to the right - and since my grip pressure is so strong i doubt that this kind of proper release can be done soley through CF.
Now i go ahead and try the same thing but this time i try to concisouly unhinge into the ball - when i look at the result - not good. I think the attempt (for me personally) to consciously unhinge leads to the result that i release too early and therefor have to face the consequences (fat/hook - unwanted manipulative hand action - the one we dont practice).
Interesting question regarding automatic. I think the more you drill, the more things will become automatic (i.e. not thinking about several details). But I think the release is always going to be somethat “deliberate”.
Hard to imagine Hogan wished he had 3 right hands if he considered the release to be involuntary. To me the intentional firing of the hands is almost a “trigger” and at my current stage of development I find I get in trouble if I don’t “try” to fire the hands hard at P3. ABS hitting seems to be a motion that we “control more” as compared to traditional swinging which requires we give up control to CF to be effective. Conscious control in this case would seem to be a benefit. (Is it a bad thing to be in command of our motion?)
Kafka - I can execute a “non-release” sort of motion that you seem to be describing (no active firing of the hands, just a hard level turn) and it will produce a nice consistent reduced power shot … very straight. The active hands firing seems to account for the other 30%. As you continue thru the modules I think you’ll develop the ability to handle the active release without some of the negative results you’ve been experiencing.
Three things really happen in a hitting procedure from P3 to P4.
The forearms rotate back to square, the wrist uncock so you club can get down to the ball, and all this rides on the wings of torso rotation.
Anyone who as spent any serious time studying Hogan knows how much emphasis he put on pronation supination, and of course he incorporated full range of motion for wrist cock.
As a hitter, these two actions happen in unison… not separately. There really is a two stage rocket firing action… with the pivot taking the bull by the horns and taking the hand strike and outracing it in a very aggressive and deliberate manner.
This can only be facilitated with the shoulder rotation being level or flat… not upright or steep.
All this takes practice and lots of repetitions to feel and master it… but once it gets under your skin… you have a chance of feeling the hands act in a very comfortable and conforming way that at some point could very well feel automatic.
A motor can be set to automatic… but never in a passive way… or hinge like way as a swinger would. Motors by their very nature are active.
I refer to the hands being passive (swinger) like a hinge… or active (hitter) like a motor.
That was indeed the basis of my question IOZ…and Lag’s answer was aligned with what I was thinking and feeling about hand sensations near the ball. Still have some work to do, but when I come from deep behind to the firing point, it feels more automatic for full action.
Still working on eliminating a small “up-move” with the hands about half way to the top that is driving me crazy at times. Some days it’s there and I struggle, other days it’s not and the ball likes it. That up-move is so ingrained from swinging it’s hard to keep it in check…even with flatter gear. RR
Has some post impact issues with the driver that will make things more difficult than it can or should be for him over the long run. Fix that and sky could be the limit
That takeaway…“shut” as Faldo describes it, looks like a great example of what has been discussed on the “TGM ? perfect” thread the past few days, …“curling under, magic move, twistaway, etc”…similarities but variations…with Lag and Mandrin commenting … references to teachings Dante, Aultman, Merrins, and Norwood.
This video shows just how wrong Faldo is about comparing Fowler’s swing to Sergio’s…Garcia’s move through impact and beyond is ‘hands down’ more reliable
This one is from before he turned pro, but I think it’s a bit of a clearer angle- though I’m not sure of the need for the first 15 seconds of it?
He definitely gets close to that parallel position as the clubs get longer, but I think the key is that he has no real interest in it. It gets close but it comes from a laid off place and goes to a further laid off place on the way down. He’s got a lot of Hogan things going on, until impact and beyond as Twomasters pointed out. In a similar way to Hogan, he’s more driven by his forward motion than his backward motion.
As far as the shut takeaway goes, I really disagree with that take from Faldo. Imo he takes the set up and carries it in motion then creates his delays with gravity. He’s very ‘clubby’ in that he has a great feel for the weight of the club and where it is in space and what gravity and force wants to do with it, and he lets it do it. Hence the post impact style. But I really do think that some people are so good that principles don’t really apply to them, and I reckon Fowler is probably one of those guys. Not everything can be measured physically to make sense, some guys are just plain good at what they do.
His takeaway style is very much like the Hockey sequence that IOZ posted. It’s also similar to Jimmy Bruen and to the Hurley players I was talking about a while ago. In my view he keeps the club inside the motor going back and when he drops it outside(behind) in transition, and the motor turns on and things go into reverse, the force is considerable. He stops and lets it all go through impact, but again, some people have such a keen sense of where things are and how and when to get them there, that they can repeat it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BxIIJxj3HI[/youtube]
This is classic modern teaching thinking from Faldo- it’s lazy and easy to compare these swings because they ‘look’ like eachother. But if you’re focused on the important things, it’s as clear as day that they basically have nothing in common.
Nice play on ‘hands down’ btw… I like clever things!
RR
RR
