Not sure how this thread morphed from “Thoughts on Ben Hogan” to Fowler, but Fowler’s golf swing has little in common with Hogan’s.
The golf ball is not hit on the backswing. Hogan was a hitter… Fowler is a swinger. Totally different.
Hit or swing, I still see it advantageous to work into a flatter backswing. Getting the pivot more involved in the golf swing
is going to happen in a more natural way if you work the golf club more behind your body as opposed to up and over your head.
If you make the big slide or drop down then fine. If it feel repeatable and reliable, little reason to change it… but most golfers as going to struggle with upright swings, with both lowpoint stability and directional control… especially if they are not playing 6 days a week.
Well, not a whole lot of good comes from me getting involved in the hitting/swinging debate, but I will say that I do see similarities in Hogan’s and Fowler’s swings, some I’ve mentioned. They obviously do part company as active impact bound acceleration begins, but they have some solid commonalities regardless: Arms not leaving the body in the backswing, a grip led takeaway which sets them up to feel and use the weight of the club to fall onto their rotation as it crosses their mid-line, similarly timed forward motion which compresses the arms/club into that rotation, and an overall respect for the club and it’s weight and also the weight of their arms imo.
No doubt about Hogan’s swing being far preferable though.
Not to mention Hogan’s sense of style was much better as well. Puma couldn’t pay me enough to wear a hat that pulled over my ears…a hat that matches his bowl-style haircut.
Generally speaking, and this is only my observation from years of playing on tour and so forth…
The players who keep their upper arms tight and packed to their chest through impact, are much more consistent ball strikers week in and week out. They don’t seem to need to practice nearly as much, and generally are a bit shorter off the tee than the guys who free wheel it all off the body. The “fly the arms off” method… often struggle with hooked drives at times, and or big blocks right… which usually are bailout motivated.
I think there are some players who can feel the timing of this very well, and can play great golf doing it. My concern as an instructor is that this feel for timing it… is much more difficult to teach… because you start getting into tempo, rhythm, timing, and so forth, and these can be very very elusive concepts for golfers that don’t feel these things.
Hogan’s swing was very muscular driven in a very active way… especially through and post impact. Cutting it left, and taking out the left side of the golf course has great merit. Sacrificing a bit of distance for laser like accuracy does also.
Matching cape and shoes?!? And you expect my peers at the Justice League to take me seriously with that kind of fashion sense? The color of the cape always matches the underwear worn outside of my tights. Hat, utility belt and BOOTS should highlight and enhance my module 1 through 6 chiseled physique.
The picture of my avatar is me in my alter ego’s outfit in order to blend with the general civilian populace. You couldn’t expect me to play golf well in red boots…would you?!
Not sure if this has been posted before but here is some fabulous footage of Hogans swing that I hadnt seen before. Some slow motion footage taken from the front for a commercial is just awesome! (towards the end of the clip)
Someone just put the last 30 seconds on a 24 hr loop and I’ll be a happy camper. Just how good did he swing it at retirement age?? Pure poetry. This explains my obsession with Hogan equipment.
Thanks for sharing that link, Dave, I’d never seen it before… just fantastic! There are other greats, but has anyone ever moved like Hogan?! He’s the missing link between liquid and solid. Magical stuff…
Your edited clip reminded me of this quote- we got a close up look at one of Hogan’s specific thoughts!
One descriptive Hogan used is amusing:
“To verify a correct backswing, at the top of the backswing the groin muscle on the inside of your right leg near your right nut will tighten. This subtle feel of tightness there tells you that you [can make] the correct move back to the ball.”
I have lots of ‘Thoughts on Ben Hogan’. For one, I’m completely obsessed with his transition(and his overall use of his legs and body). I was talking to Eagle in another thread a while ago about the Dantien, and how I think it moves. I mentioned how important it is that rides it’s way forward/down while staying on the right leg, and nobody did it better than Hogan, imo. This is from an earlier swing so the legs are a bit more active, but all the better to look at. This is 7 frames(+1 where he basically jumps off his right foot/leg and fully plants into the left heel) of the end of the backswing through the first part of the downswing- the club has moved a long way during this time, but he does it all on his right leg with his left foot still unloaded. It’s a pretty remarkable feat of athleticism, and a phenomenally powerful move. This is another benefit for a bit of a wider stance- you’ve got more distance to utilize for this kind of fall move.
Bom…
Sorry to overtake the pics…I couldn’t get tiff files to load and the download manager I use kept popping up trying to download them each time the page popped up (wonder if anyone else gets this?? it happened on that ChiChi page somewhere recently too…because of IDM I believe)…so I put them all together in one sequence to see…hope you don’t mind
I think Hogan’s hip slide left is a very advanced move… wonderful really if you can do it… but it takes a lot of “other things” to be lined up to do it. Hogan’s action was very quick tempo, so I suppose that the opposing force at transition may have needed more gusto, than just a downward flex of the knees (which he did also). The slide “without turning” preserves hip rotation to be used later. If you want Hogan films, you will see his hips moving or rotating from P3 through P4, right through impact… while if you watch a lot of modern players, you see the hips completely stall, because they have turned left too quickly due to a lack of proper sequencing, and a pivot that has over accelerated. The arms then slap through and we don’t get a really great connection going on.
The hips moving left but essentially staying closed much longer does require a certain amount of flexibility also. It also requires that the weight stay longer over the right foot. This also may have had to do with Hogan’s tremendous module #1#2 and #3 action. The path of the hands coming in on such a flat and deep entry also needed extra space for the arms to travel through (the slot)
I am not sure I have ever seen anyone else really do this move the way Hogan did. There was a guy on the Canadian Tour years ago from Texas who was really working on this move… but his results were nothing special. I don’t believe it to be a secret move or missing link. I see it maybe as a very advanced option that can only be installed once other things are really happening with fantastic dynamics. Trying to just do that alone? I don’t think it’s feasible.
These comments in particular hit me, that is, things I had not considered:
(so not only does he save shoulder rotation, he also saves hip rotation, and this is how he can do what he does, ie, not stall his hips)…lightbulb !
The other thing I am struggling a bit with is apparently the base of his spine can complete it’s move to the left at his top, pre-downswing, but due to the dynamics, his weight does not move until later.(?) That seems like a potential trap in analysis…at least for me, as I have labored under the assumption that his weight had moved to the left before the downswing…but looks like I have been mistaken.
Over on “The secret in the dirt” Sevam1 and Elkington are talking about Cotton´s instruction book in one of their videos. There they are discussing the topic of putting a golf ball card box under your left foot, and you are only supposed to crush it AFTER you hit the ball. This is so different from what i have learned, but i assume that this is what you mean by keeping the weight longer on the right foot. Here on ABS its all the talk about holding back the hips, holding back the shoulders, holding back everywhere, just like the greats did - now i recall my lessons i had in the past, and its pretty much the opposite of these principles. Fire the hips, shift weight, rotate your shoulders early on…
I can only describe from my perspective and experience, but if i would be somebody without any memory of previous bad golf experience, i probably just would go ahead and do it as prescribed. Now when my memory kicks in, i realize that somewhere in the past i fought a Reverse C finish and i´m actually a bit scared when holding back or delaying, that this problem shows up again since my memory showhow associates holding back with Reverse C (or falling back). Just to give you a little insight into my golf related psychosis and what might cause a smooth relearning process. But i´m probably not alone with this, as i´m sure there are many other people out there who got “not so good advice” from their pros.
What does the weight transfer actually do? If it doesnt provide direct power to the swing, shouldnt we let it happen naturally at the point the body wants to shift instead of forcing it?
“Preserving” what LAG said and “holding back” are probably two different things, that might trigger different imaginative pictures.
When looking at Hogan he has a very continous hip rotation starting at some point and ending at another - but its fluid.
Now if we look for example at McIllroy´s swing he has rotation - stall - little bit of rest rotation once the club passes P4 - at least thats my observation : youtube.com/watch?v=rQ3iuhfJaEI
But this pattern seems to be quite widespread with a lot of todays pros.
But if we assume Hogans fluid motion is better than a pivot stall - isnt the statement “The faster the hips move, the better. They can’t go too fast” incorrect? If we would apply max speed to the hip rotation, wouldnt we immediately end up with a pivot stall - something we dont want to do in regard of having it all move together?
