Wally world continues…
Captain chime in, im tired
Why do I think this guy is getting kickbacks from half a dozen chiropractors?
I’m not a professional golfer, so I’m not qualified. 
Now…if this were Kama Sutra…then I’m all over it.
Captain Chaos
Folks, we need to look at words. I learned many years ago to look at the other side of the equation when Ms. Clinton was pushing for national health care and she said we needed it because 400,000 Americans lost health care that week or month. She was not lying. The problem was 450,000 people got new health care that month so there was a net gain of people receiving health care. Do not be mislead by what you read and hear. Look at the opposite side of the coin or for truth that may be different from your truth at the current moment.
As svsvincenzo,tsdean and chris golf pointed out, the right shoulder must travel downward (i.e. steep) to IMPACT (AGAIN TO IMPACT AND NOT BEYOND) if the right elbow is to stay pinned to the right side of the body and saved for beyond impact. So yes, Phil and Mr. Hogan look very similar into impact. These men did not write about post impact postions. At the top of the backswing, Mr. Hogans shoulders are very level and he lowers the right shoulder to get down to the ball while maintaining the right elbow and wrist cock. Now, do this very slowly with a club and you will see that the right shoulder has to travel vertically under the plane of glass to save the right elbow and get to the level of the ball. To keep the shoulders more level to IMPACT (AGAIN TO IMPACT AND NOT BEYOND), the right elbow must straighten. So, I ask, do we want to have a level shoulder turn to impact or save the right elbow? You can’t do both, so make your choice. If you look at the pictures of Hogan and Woods at impact their shoulders are not that different if at all. Tiger has not saved his right elbow or held wrist cock as Mr. Hogan has. (Tried to post pictures but could not)
After impact is a whole different story, as now to keep the right elbow pinned to the side, the right shoulder must move upwards fast and hard. This promotes the level shoulder position (i.e. FLAT) POST IMPACT (AGAIN, AFTER THE BALL HAS BEEN STRUCK). Also, the only way to retain wrist cock is for level shoulders POST IMPACT. How is the level shoulder position achieved? The left side crunch!!! Ralph at Gotham Golf Blog had an excellent video of Mr. Hogan and Mr. Trevino some weeks ago where someone (Greg McHatton I believe) analyzed force vectors of their swings. The 2 largest force vectors POST IMPACT (AGAIN- POST IMPACT), were the left shoulder moving opposite direction of the target and the right hip moving toward the target. Maybe the arm flyout we see post impact from alot of the pros nowadays is from a right shoulder or left shoulder stall at impact. Maybe Mr. Hogan hit or covered the ball with his right shoulder by pulling his left shoulder rearwards (i.e. a left side crunch while maintaining hip rotation as well). Look at Chi Chi, Peter Senior and Hogan at the finish. The right shoulder is level to or higher than the left shoulder.
I want to thank crr for posting the Chi Chi video. Now Module 4 that I have been practicing for over a year is now finally making sense and I am finally going to submit some videos. I want to thank svsvincenzo,tsdean and chris golf for the right shoulder observation as this felt great going through my Mod 4 drills and allowed me to fire my right shoulder into impact and beyond.
Bob
To keep level and flat with a bent right arm, you have to use your KNEES to get down to the ball along with some uncocking of the wrist. Most professionals today dont have nearly as much knee flex as the players of the past. So only way to get to the ball is straightening of the right arm coupled with steep shoulders.
In order to play flat lie clubs, you have to keep more level or you will stick the toe end into the ground 2 inches deep.
The majority of hackers or beginners rotate their shoulders very flat and level… however, they don’t hold wristcock and they don’t slot the club on the downswing… instead they just chop straight down from the top.
Beginners think that the clubhead should travel down a straight visual line along the plane line and are oblivious to the optical illusions created because we are looking down upon the plane of the club from above.
Most conventional instructors will try to work a young golfer into steep shoulders to get them onto the correct downswing path to correct the banana slice. This does work, but creates more of a swinger’s move with a lot of clubface rotation going through impact and a shaft moving out and off plane into an equal angular spiral or progressive parallel planes out to the right. This creates more lessons for the instructor because while the student can on occasion hit great golf shots, they are now open to both hooks and blocks. Because the pivot stalls with the steep shoulders… it has to… the arms get involved too much, right arm straightens to save the shot from going right, lowpoint is all over the place and the timing element is huge. Years of ball beating can sort things out if combined with great tempo and feel… but golf always feels like you are walking a tight rope between left and right shots.
The club makers come in with their aids, cavity backs, frying pans, and other gizmos to help band aid the problems.
What most students of the swing and many instructors don’t understand is that low and left IS on plane. There is no reason to be on plane anywhere in the golf swing except through impact for a very brief moment.
I would argue that you should NOT be on plane at any other point in the swing because the golf swing is executed in 3 dimensions… not 2D. There is a lot of hidden power waiting to be harnessed once you open up to a 3D golf swing.
bob,
i’m glad you saw it and got some use out of it. i will have to defer credit to mr. hughes, though, for posting it first!
yours above was a very insightful post, and, despite my thinking i understood the post-impact movements, am just beginning to appreciate how low and left the hands must move post impact to keep the club on plane. in a recent email to john, i was describing how weird it felt when i finally understood that after dropping the club in the p3/4:30 slot–and ONLY after–the goal of the swing actually WAS to feel, essentially, OTT. i had spent so much time trying to get rid of the feel in order to find the magic slot, now, here i was after all that hard work slotting the club, trying to get OTT again! of course, i needed to spend the past year focused on slotting the club in order to trust that feeling as second nature. now i’m starting to reap the harvest of that hard work.
another interesting observation i had looking at some video of myself striking balls with these intentions (pre-impact deep drop into p3/4:30 and then from that position as OTT as possible, right shoulder up etc.) was that i was preserving my lag angles much later into impact. it’s almost like that OTT/right shoulder up move helps to decrease the distance the clubhead must travel into impact, allowing one to delay the strike further into impact. it’s like a positive feedback loop–only after one acheives a deep 4:30 position can one turn level/feel OTT through and beyond impact, and only after one turns level/feels OTT through and beyond impact can one get deeper into the 4:30 position…
crr,
Thank you for stating that in a different/better fashion. For me to get to the 430 line, the hands and right shoulder must drop. At this point, all heck breaks loose as the left side crunch, right shoulder OTT move must occur in a fast, hard manner. This allows me from the 430 line to PV5 to fire the shoulders level and maintaining wrist cock gets the shaft into the vertical position that is desired. Before I was trying to to just go OTT from the start of the downswing and was having a hard time holding the 430 line. Now with the slight downward movement of my right shoulder and then upward movement of it I can maintain the 430 line, right elbow tucked and saved and then fire strong post impact. And yes, the knees must be flexed with the right knee working inside the left knee. Keeping the knees working is the proper fashion is still difficult for me.
Bob
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I’m for L shoulder getting under/parallel the Hogan plane with the L arm level with R shoulder because of R armpit connection maintenance, all it steep or whatever, but steep as a feel and perpendicular to spine as reality is I think a very good feel/imagery.
In any case, I don’t think that results to a clubface closing faster than you want. In fact, the steep/perp L shoulder turn will make the clubface close slower. And, if you can figure out how to use this together with the “low” L hand/arm (shallow approach/elbow plane), the face closure will really slow down. The face will be square for as long as possible.
Good discussion going here.
I just wanted to add the following anecdote as a proud father and as it pertains to Hogan…my wife handed my nine month-old daughter my copy of Power Golf to keep her occupied this afternoon. She kept staring at the cover intently, intermittently tasting the side of the book as infants do. After about five minutes, I tried to take it away from her and she vociferously protested, crying loudly each of three times I tried to take it from her! Smart girl–I was so proud!
Chicks dig the FLW
She’s only into pre-accident Hogan, y’know, before his ‘pitching wedge swing’.
Ok, I’ll show her Five Fundamentals and let you know how it goes. As a negative control I’ll show her Kostis’ book. She’ll probably cry until I take it away from her…
Just found this. Highlights of Hogan vs Snead Shell’s Wonderful world of Golf.
i’m sure many of you have seen this already. For those who haven’t seen this before its great, although I don’t care for the music. No offense.
If inappropriate to post this here please remove.
enjoy:
I’ve seen this brought up in this thread and else where. What about Hogans grip on the club, did he remove the taper from the grip under his right hand? It sure looks that way in some pictures.
Was/Is it common practice for many pros whether from Hogans era, or any era for that matter, to remove the taper from grips under the right hand?
New video I posted of Hogan
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul918nyx8Yo[/youtube]
Thanks TM
Sure takes away the the thougths on what the grip was doing
Steve
That’s a nice angle but where’s the lazy floaty gravity drop there? I see compression into the slot and the same connection between the levers that I’ve been looking at for twenty years but not a float.
May I quote you on that? 
One dollah americaine & its yours