" Hogan had steep shoulders"
The rest was a blur, i passed out at that. Is it wally world here now ?
Well, he definitely had shoulders, which is something I think we can all agree on. 
If Hogan had steep shoulders, I have 7 heads , cant be simpler than that.
I think hogan was as steep as anyone, if not a bit steeper than alot of poeple think. The difference between Hogan and alot of others is I believe he didnt increase the steepness of his shoulders like alot of other players do.
Compair DTL views of Hogan V Mickleson and Mickleson is alot shallower than hogan right down to a foot or so before impact, his right shoulder drops underneath alot through impact . I think Hogan was by no means shallow or level at all. which you can clearly see in all his DTL views.
The more level or horizontal you turn your shoulders the more you need to straighten your right arm into impact I have found. You need enough spine angle through the downswing to maintain the bent right arm. For some people with short arms you need to bend over more than others.
So I’d say Hogan was steepish or middle of the road and maintained it very well through the whole downswing.
Its Wally world. Im seeing something different.
Phil shallower than Hogan ? omfg
Lets try this. the sun is made of ice
Has about the same amount of logic
Give me a break when you mention Hogans game/swing, because to reference in the same vien as Phil is bizzare. Phil would not be fit to tie Bens shoes let alone challenge his technique.
This is getting weird this thread
Has Kostis raided some email accounts, cause im at a loss
Phill shallower omfg
I dont believe I mentioned Phil could hit the ball as good as Hogan, Im stating phil’s shoulders (and other so called “2 planers”) swing with level shoulders up until impact and drive the back shoulder underneath.
If you want proof. Look at this
youtube.com/watch?v=urosP6UlAI8
And watch between 40 and 55 second mark and tell me his shoulders are steep?.
Conversly watch Hogan at the 3 second mark…
youtube.com/watch?v=P3bIHagVU9o
Hogans is not exactly shallow.
Pause both swings at the top and Phil’s shoulders are pointed 6 feet or more outside the ball.
Hogans shoulders are maybe 3-4 feet.
You cant tell me you cannot see this?
Remember
When I say steep,his Shoulders are steepish. His arms are shallow… You cant have super shallow shoulders and shallow arms or you require to much right arm extensions through impact…
So you either have steepish shoulders+shallow arms
or
Shallow shoulders+ steep arms.
Agree on most parts…
The problem is you can look at any video of Ben Hogan and interpret it to your favour…
There is one guy on the internet who thinks Ben Hogan was always on top at impact…
Every good player stays with his COG´s forward for a low Ballflight… But did he it as well
for a hight shot? Of course not.
With a Driver you don´t need steep shoulders as well, period.
Here a pictures from a wedge shot FO - if your shoulder goes the same amount down as back…
I don´t know how people would call this.
By tarifachris at 2012-05-31
By tarifachris at 2012-05-31
By tarifachris at 2012-05-31
The interesting part is - how can you move your shoulders independently!!!
For sure Mr. Hogans right shoulder is lower and flatter than anyone…
Chris
@chrisgolf
Maybe steep or upright is a wrong term. In reality it’s just a bent over spine angle when the BS gets on the way…and he really turn those shoulder, especially the L shoulder perpendicular to the spine. His feel is exactly what he said it is—he turned his shoulders and arms parallel and below his plane of glass. Doing this brings in a totally different dynamics especially in the pronation and supination things…
I guess people likes calling it flat because it feels flat because the L arm is low relative to the shoulders. But a careful look at all Hogan videos at impact zone will reveal he’s not flat. It’s just that he stands up sooner than most, but when the R arm is parallel post impact already. The ball is long gone.
If I look it that way, than the pane of glass image makes the first time any sense to me…
By tarifachris at 2012-05-31
By tarifachris at 2012-05-31
Thank you…
In the downswing the flat right shoulder makes as well a lot of sense…
There’s something about that geometry - where a flat right shoulder turn drives the hands down - that just spells sustained lag pressure to me…
Nice discussion…
Chris
P. S. I am the only one, who can´t preview posts and can´t upload pictures anymore?
[size=200][b]Amateurs teach amateurs to BE AMATEURS
HAHAHAHAHAHA[/b][/size]
You Pros do sell a better Mars Bar.
If the shoulders work flat or level, then more rotational power can be applied through and beyond impact via rotation.
If the shoulders move steep, then speed needs to come from somewhere else such as the right arm throwing at the ball, or an early hit which is common.
The problem with the modern theory is that it is all velocity based… not thrust based, not mass and acceleration based.
So great strikers of the past knew this either intellectually or intuitively or both. The modern players have been fed on swing analyzers that are basing information on velocity and spin rates… not compression.
One thing that Homer Kelley DID get right is the importance of measuring both pre and post impact clubhead speeds.
What he missed was the effect of off centered hits on clubface torquing. No one hits it dead solid flush on the eye of the sweetspot every time. Some of course more than others.
The modern theory suggest humans are not capable of dealing with these imperfections through adaptive technique, and try to cover the human flaws with forgiving gear. Modern clubs look back at you and say… “you’re no good…try this club or this toaster on a stick”.
I disagree, and propose that we can learn to swing better and ultimately swing the club and strike the ball better arriving at better golf… via advanced techniques that WE control.
Shoulders of these two are working correctly for a hitting action. Very level through impact and beyond.
Anyone suggesting Hogan’s shoulders were steep through and beyond impact must have a different point of reference.
I would say Hogan’s were a bit steeper than Ian Woosnam’s were during his prime playing days or maybe Peter Senior.
Chi Chi worked things very flat and level with the shoulders post impact.
But generally speaking… swingers tend to go with steeper shoulders. You can’t do both through impact… you can’t have your shoulders steep and level at the same time. No best of both worlds happening on that protocol.
1 Like
Here is Phil flipped around to a right handed perspective.
Very steep with the shoulders.
Chris, I had the same problem earlier not being able to upload photos. Should be fixed now.
Hogan & Tiger
Hogan & Ted Williams
Hogan & Bubba
Hogan & Fowler
And our friend Iron Byron…thought this interesting …snipped it from a Cleveland commercial…because it shows a one arm lever machone can in fact control the face and not roll like most want to do when the right arm straightens…(why doesn’t it roll…???..acceleration instead of velocity??)
2 Likes
Or maybe because it’s bolted on and can only rotate square… If it’d work I would sign up for that BTW
GREAT pics TM
Steve
Just to be clear…what I am saying is not velocity power based…it is rotational power based…
And the steeper shoulder turn doesn’t mean the more the turn is inhibited…the problem is it means you have to extend your L side more and correspondingly bend your R side more…and another problem is…that will make you bend more and the R shoulder and arm will be closer to the ground…both of these problems should be figured out, otherwise you will end up trying to tap into rotational power and the only way to release the clubhead is thru low and left release (high R shoulder release) and/or straightening the spine angle (humping the goat).