Hitter > Frozen right elbow
Swinger > Unhinge right elbow
money @lagpressure
Lagpressure
I have been looking at this recent BBG video and it just doesn’t make sense to me purely from a physics perspective.
The only forces that you can exert on the grip is via the hands. The amount of energy you can transfer to the club via the hands is dependent on ‘Force x distance moved in the direction of the force’ (ie. the ‘Work’ done on the club - basic school physics).
In your swing technique , the hand path is significanty shorter than a ‘Swinger’ therefore the work done via the hands on the club will also be significantly smaller. The only way you can maintain superiority in clubhead speed compared to a swinger’s much longer hand path is to increase the force variable.
So how are you increasing that force applied via the hands to the grip?
Check out this video by Dr Sasho Mackenzie from 37:15- 47:06 which can explain the physics in more layman terms.
Perhaps the “Hit straight shots” in the title is the part that is eluding comprehension?
Can’t recall any point during the BBG videos of Lag in which he states or implies distance will be further.
If you are a power fader that hits the annoyingly occasional hook, or a hooker that hits the frequent coat hanger, then the elimination through turn makes perfect sense.
BTW, I have experienced ZERO decrease in distance since employing Lag’s tutelage. If anything, my distance has increased due to turning harder/faster as I have no fear of going left. Even my 17yo son mentioned it.
If the rotation of my body has slightly increased, then my hand speed/club head speed is going to have a natural increase. What part of that is confusing? Conversely, if I hit it straighter and lost 10 yards off a driver, but eliminate left, what do I care?
Please go hit some balls as suggested above. A very wise understated suggestion.
The ball flight NEVER lies…
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Thanks for the confirmation that this ‘Hitting’ technique is only to improve direction and not clubhead speed ?
Everything is relative. Was an intentional cutter; to eliminate left intent, with the 2x per round hook. Have been watching Hogan videos to see how to tame it, unfortunately I am not as intuitive at impact/post-impact dynamics as I would like. Was a 1.3 index prior to last year’s rotator cuff repair, and am now a 2.8. Frustrating.
Using Lag’s instruction found on BBG, am now drawing 90%+ of full shots without fear of going left. Have naturally picked up yardage across-the -board as a draw is hotter than a fade with the same effort.
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You want the hand path shorter. The pivot is your clubface. And what is faster ? Hands or a hard low pivot out of the shot ?
Ever studied a sling shot ?
Not sure what you are talking about. Did you read my post where I said “The only way you can maintain superiority in clubhead speed compared to a swinger’s much longer hand path is to increase the force variable.”
F=Ma , Work = Force x distance .
1.If the Hitters clubhead speed is greater than the ‘Swinger’
2.But the distance the hand path moves for the swinger is greater
3.Then the Hitter has to apply more force over a shorter hand path distance.
But none of this matters because Muddfoot has confirmed that this ‘Hitting’ technique is about superior direction and nothing to do with increasing clubhead speed (an error on my part).
Your post doesn’t make any sense to me.
What do you mean the pivot is your clubface?
What do you mean by “Hands or a hard low pivot out of the shot ?”
What’s a sling shot got to do with the golf swing? Unless you are thinking about a ‘Trebuchet’ whose physics is more reflective of a swinger than a hitter.
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I’m the sun. The planets rotate around me. I don’t rotate around them
The sun is my core and body. The planets are my arms and hands which basically do very little
Study this. All you need to know
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I cannot sign in. Any suggestions?
You cannot sign in to where? I mean, you must have been signed into the forum, for otherwise you could not have made your post.
I can add power to the clubhead by rotating my torso, striking with the combination of forearm and wrist uncocking in unision, or I could throw right arm at it.
The right arm throw is very timing based and very problematic for consistent striking.
I’m going to post an extensive video showing how this works… and the proper application of uncocking the wrists, forearm rotation and pivot rotation.
Many people are frightened by an open clubface and a cupped left wrist that helps open the clubface. This should be embraced, not feared.
There is advanced technique that needs to be applied… not misunderstood.
I shot the video today… and should have it up within the next few days.
Should clear things up for those who are still confused about how it works properly.
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Dubious,
I’d like to discuss several points.
First of all you seem to imply that ABS is about maximizing club head speed. (“The only way you can maintain superiority in clubhead speed compared to a swinger’s much longer hand path is to increase the force variable.”) This is understandable as most golf instruction these days seems to be obsessed with club head speed. However, ABS is more about controlling the golf ball while also hitting it hard and far (when needed). That is, it’s not about sacrifice control to squeeze out a few more miles per hour in club head speed.
Second, the conclusion you draw from your reference to the scalar work is not really correct. You assume that the swinging method applies some force during the entire hand path. If all the force is applied only during a very short distance at the start of the downswing, then only that short distance contributes to work (and hence energy). Note, I’m not saying that ABS hitting necessarily puts more energy in the club head at impact than swinging. I’m only saying that your analysis is wanting. It very well may be that while overall hand path is less with ABS hitting, the distance over which some force is being applied may nevertheless be longer.
Third, I’d like to offer an admittedly overly simplified model that I hope will lead to a more fruitful discussion. I hesitate to offer this model here since it distracts from trying to feel the golf swing, and instead intellectualizes it. But since that’s what you and Jeff seem to relate to, perhaps it will be useful. This model is by no means new or original. In one form or another it has been offered before. It would not surprise me in the least if you considered all this before. In any case, suppose we have three rods. To give the rods names (as well as to stimulate our imagination), let’s call one rod the “upper arm,” another the “lower arm,” and the third the “club.” (I know we have two arms, but we’re simplifying here).
Attached to the top of the upper arm is a motor which we’ll call the “pivot.” To the bottom of the upper arm is a hinge, the “elbow.” This elbow hinge is also attached to the top of the lower arm. Attached to the bottom of the lower arm and to the top of the club is another hinge called the “wrist.” These hinges, the elbow and wrist, may or may not have little motors on them. Finally, let’s unsurprisingly call the bottom of the club the club head.
The swinging method—or an exaggerated and simplified form of it—can now be described as follows. First of all, the elbow and wrist hinges are without motors. The pivot applies a force (technically a torque, but that’s not important for the level of this discussion) for a short period, which stops before the elbow and wrist hinges do their respective unhinging. The momentum of the system causes the elbow hinge to “straighten,” followed by the wrist. The energy transferred to the club head is a result of the force applied by the pivot motor over its short distance, as well as the lack of friction in the elbow and wrist hinges (which could otherwise decrease the energy transferred).
(There’s also a modified swinging method, which some confusingly call hitting, where the elbow hinge is motorized, and also applies a force to straighten it faster than it otherwise would, which transfers additional energy to the club head.)
ABS hitting (or rather the equivalent of it in this simplified model) is very different. Both the elbow and wrist hinges are motorized. The elbow motored hinge causes the elbow to straighten to about 150 degrees or so, and then stops. At this point it no longer acts like a hinge. It’s frozen. The wrist motored hinge applies some force. Soon after this force is applied, the pivot motor starts applying its force, which increases in magnitude, and bypasses the magnitude of the force applied by the wrist motor, quickly dwarfing it. This results in the wrist hinge straightening while also preventing it from flipping. The forces of all of these motors contributes to the energy transferred to the club head.
Some points to note:
(1) These are overly simplified models. Among other things, the pivot here combines the shoulders, the torso, the hips, etc. to one endpoint. The hinges here can only rotate in one plane unlike the real wrist, torso, hips, etc. However these simplifications can help illuminate other points of contention.
(2) The swinging model may very well apply a greater force by the pivot at the very start than the ABS hitting method. However, this pivot force is short lived. All the energy is generated very early on. The ABS hitting model applies its forces gradually at first, and increases the net magnitude throughout the entire swing. The wrist motor gives way to the much more powerful pivot motor, which allows the net force to be present throughout the entire swing.
(3) Since the forces applied in the ABS hitting model are always present, the club is pressured throughout, and the wrist and pivot motors can detect (“feel”) the club head, and hence can modulate their forces accordingly. This is what gives the ABS hitter the control that is not possible with swinging. This also allows for timing to be a non-factor with ABS hitting as opposed to swinging.
At any rate, I hope this far too long post, despite its over simplifications, helps in making this conversation more productive.
William
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Swinging is standing on a zip wire box and initiating the child going down the wire.
Hitting is backing into it a few steps and then turning as fast as you can and hurling the kid down the zip wire as hard as you can whilst telling them to hold on very tight.
Swinging is the impulse of flinging a shopping trolley with a dodgy wheel 20 metres down an aisle towards the glass deli counter. And then standing there and hoping it will hit it. Do it enough times and you might learn the most successful way to launch it.
Hitting is pulling that trolley backwards at increasing speed to within a couple of metres, without tiring yourself out, and then turning and hurling that trolley as fast and aggressively as you can through and beyond the glass counter.
Swinging is a an overhand right from distance at a weaving and bobbing opponent. Hitting is a right hook from under the opponents guard.
Maybe! Anyway these analogies focus my attention post impact.
Here’s a question - would be a golf analogy for coasting versus accelerating a car round as fast as possible round the final bend and toward the final straight?
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Hanisch
I am aware of the double-pendulum model that is used to explain the physics of a ‘swinging’ golf action. I’m also aware of its limitations because the golf swing is not a double pendulum but more reflective of a conical pendulum (which is too complicated to discuss here).
You can view some of the models of the golf swing in the link below:
Modeling the Golf Swing (tutelman.com)
The swinging method does apply force during the entire hand path and you have made an error about the force only being applied during a very short distance at the start of the downswing.
This is not some assumption I have made myself as it is explained in great detail here:
Linear and Angular Work during Downswing of a PGA Tour Major Winner on Vimeo
You can see from the graphs of this major winner (ie. a swinger) that there is a linear force still acting along the hand path all the way to impact. In fact, most of the ‘work’ done on the club to increase its kinetic energy is done by linear work along the hand path. Note that these linear forces also produce angular rotation of the club, because ‘eccentric forces’ (ie. those that do not pass through the centre of mass of the club) causes rotation. You can easily experience this yourself by prodding one end of a pencil on a smooth glass table. The pencil’s centre of mass moves in the direction of your prodding finger but it also rotates at the same time (this is the physics of release in a swinger). There is also a distinct separate amount of angular work done by a force couple applied via the hands (ie. a torque) but it’s very small. The swinger in effect uses linear forces across the grip to create clubhead speed all through the downswing and into impact.
Thanks for explaining the ABS hitting action and I’ll await the video that John Erickson will be publishing in due course.
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I’ve had the same problem where the website produces a login error for no valid reason. You can login by requesting a link to be emailed, which you then click (without putting in your user id /password).
Actually, the Sun is also rotating around the Earth too but I get your point.
Wonderful series with Brendon, Lag. Your videos fill in many of the questions I had years ago in your original forum that got lost, misunderstood, or bogged down within some of the lengthy discussion threads.
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