In all respect thats your opinion. But, alot of guys here have played against the top players in the world and competed in major championships. If you are a swinger and never tested the two different motions under pressure your opinion is just empty, sorry.
The swingers core slows down and the right arm fires “down the line”. Have great players used this method? Yes. But, they admire the George Knudsons, Hogan and Trevinos of the golfing world bc they are superior ball strikers. That doesnt mean someone cannot be a great player as a swinger but a ball-striker comes from hitting and torquing the shaft.
Simply grab a club and put it against a door jam. Try to bend the shaft. The best way to do this is lean into it with the whole core of the sternum legs and connected arms. Now do it with just the arms and you will find the different feels between the swinger and the striker.
Put it under pressure of a major championship and you would see a swinger having an ultra short game to compensate for his miss hits.
Thats not an opinion. Facts are that most great ball-strikers are hitters not swingers.
I posted photos of holding shaft flex with a bent left wrist well past impact. If the wrists are firm and structured through the strike… which is what I teach… firm grip and this also stabilizes the clubface for off centered strikes… (Which is extremely helpful for scoring)
It’s the core, the torso/ pivot acceleration that is key here … not keeping hands ahead of the clubshaft. For a hitter, it has nothing to do with left arm vs shaft angles."
Your explanation makes no sense when it comes to what is happening through impact in those Knudson/Hogan images. I agree with you that if you keep the lead wrist firm and structured through the strike, that you could still be “holding shaft flex” in the early followthrough - even if the clubhead is ahead of the hands at impact due to the fact you were coming into impact with a markedly bent lead wrist where the clubhead is already ahead of the hands at impact. However, that is not what is happening in those Knudson/Hogan early followthrough images. They come into impact with the lead hand ahead of the clubhead and with a FLW or slightly bowed lead wrist and then their lead wrist structure changes rapidly through impact due to the fact that the clubhead end of the club has a greater angular velocity than their lead hand from an angular rotational perspective and that causes the clubhead end of the clubshaft to bypass their lead hand from an angular rotational perspective. Under those conditions - where the lead hand is ahead of the clubhead at impact and then rapidly becomes behind the clubhead very soon after impact (as perceived from an angular rotational perspective in the third dimensional plane of the swingplane) - lag tension cannot be present.
You wrote-: "That’s not an opinion. Facts are that most great ball-strikers are hitters not swingers"
Where is the evidence? You have to show that the peripheral clubshaft is always bent back throughout the late downswing and also through the strike into the early followthrough and you also have to demonstrate that the lead hand is accelerating through impact. I have never seen that “evidence” ever presented for any great ball-striker’s driver swing.
@JeffMann Swingers vs Hitters. There are plenty of great “ball strikers” Hitters not swingers as evidence watch this video below. . The down the line “swinger” release of right arm isnt as effective period. I can do both and have competed with both. All my tournaments gravitate to a full body core motion where flex in shaft is a key. If u want to debate whether the flex is bowing a certain way Im not really interested in dialogue directional torque. What I do know a swinger method fails consistently at higher levels. If u didnt make the transition and now at 74 years of age keep harping the old method is ideal thats your decision. I know all my tournament play was the best when core was engaged and continued theu the strike never stalling out.
Striking using force vs striking using momentum. Simple enough
f=ma. Hitting
p=mv Swinging
So the difference would be given a equal velocity at impact… say 100 mph.
The hitter coming into impact with the clubhead accelerating and the swinger’s club not accelerating… (Jeff Mann). Without a ball, the swinger has already reached max acceleration somewhere in the downswing. The hitter has not.
Forget about the ball… if there was no ball to slow down from the collision… better to think of it this way… because a golf swing does not need a ball to be executed. A golf shot does. We are talking about the golf swing and applications of momentum, forces, pressures…
interesting how golf’s scientific community that embraces things like “trackman” or “flightscope” use the ball to reverse engineer what happened at impact with no interest in what mass was involved from the moving part of the collision (ball stationary). No input or algorithm for mass of the clubhead… I mean seriously?
I just have to roll my eyes again.
Maybe someday, the scientists will get up to speed and actually understand that mass in golf is important. Then do their homework and get back to us.
In reality Jeff , and no disrespect. In one of your videos you say your back has been fused and you can’t even do what you think should be done. I think a hitters style of golf may be perfect for you . IMHO. You (and even your protege) are teaching a swing not a hit. Your applying all of these micro moves into peoples minds… when in reality your forgetting this is a motion. One motion, not a million micro moves. That is what your missing… and missing way right or way left.
Here is a simple formula that will cover your 1050 hours of videos.
Backswing ; turn , lift , set , higher back hip
Beginning of Down swing: squat , level hips, hands down to 430 line
To finish: 430 line in hip pocket, turn low hard and left, leads to stable clubface finish
Bingo . A one motion feel. Stable clubface. Exactly what we feel
Simple. Why the 1050 plus hours of videos ?
Than you actually mentioned that you were thinking of coming up with a dvd. That would be volumes 1-50.
All that you have showed me as “evidence” is a Slicefixer video showing a CP-arm release action where the hands go inside-left soon after impact. However, that does not equate to a “holding shaft flex” technique. Many modern-day pro golfers use a CP-arm release action where the hands go inside-left soon after impact, but they are not using a hitters (“hold shaft flex”) technique and they are not accelerating their clubhead through impact.
Here is Tiger Woods using a CP-arm release action through impact.
However, where is the “evidence” that he is using a “hold shaft flex” technique where the clubhead is being accelerated through impact into the early followthrough? Note that his peripheral clubshaft is bent slightly forwards at impact and even after impact (despite hitting the turf which should deflect the peripheral clubshaft backwards).
I’ve provided you some facts already that not one pro that was tested with a shaft flex measuring tool showed lag tension.
Inverse dynamics show that there is negative torque applied at the grip approaching impact which means forward shaft bend.
You have the well-respected Tom Wishon saying that it is very rare for any golfer to have lagging bend.
I have shown that a toe hit for hitter vs swinger shows almost the same ball dispersion trajectory.
The only counter argument you have is a personal opinion that certain golfers were hitters and were superior ball strikers.
"The swingers core slows down and the right arm fires “down the line”
I can imagine that most swingers use their lead arm but it is possible to swing with their trail arm too.
“Put it under pressure of a major championship and you would see a swinger having an ultra short game to compensate for his miss hits.”
Again, these are just your personal opinions with no evidence to back up your statements.
Maybe you are just ‘feeling’ lag tension approaching impact, but the shaft is not actually lagging at all.
Here is an old video of Peter Alliss explaining the ‘time lag’ between creating ‘lag tension’ and actually feeling it. It’s not the most detailed scientific explanation but I think you will get the general idea.
I cannot understand why you think clubhead acceleration through impact (ie. 100 mph at impact) will make much of a difference compared to a swinging action that is just impacting the ball at 100 mph (ie. with no acceleration).
I’ve just shown that your toe-hits for hitter vs swinger does not change the dispersion of the ball. It may feel like you’ve stabilised the club post impact but there is no stabilising effect during clubface/ball contact (0.5 millisecs) for either technique.
Also, there is no appreciable increase in clubhead speed (see link below)
Some golfers who use a swinging action are actually angularly accelerating the clubhead through impact (ie. they are trying to peak their angular velocity post impact rather than before or at impact). Even if they did, the increase in clubhead speed is quite miniscule for a standard 200 g clubhead as mentioned in the article above (ie. an extra 1.5 yds ball distance).
You mentioned using a heavier clubhead with a mass of 16 oz which is approx 454 grams. If you plugged that into the Dave Tutelman’s equation in the above article and accelerated through impact at (ie. 500 ft/sec/sec ) you would get about another extra 4-5 yds distance with the ball.
You are not wholly correct when you say the scientific community have no interest in the clubhead mass during collision (Dave Tutelman’s article(s) are living proof).
Here is also a gif showing the forward shaft bend just before impact for a ‘swinger’ and how it moves into lagging shaft bend after impact with the ball. Just showing images of Ben Hogan with lagging shaft bend after impact doesn’t mean he had lag tension before or during impact.
You can clearly see a transverse wave moving up the shaft which will be partially reflected back down and then quickly stabilise into a lagging bend of the whole shaft.
So now you are claiming that swingers are more prone to injury than hitters. I’m not at all convinced by your assertions without any evidence to support them and don’t understand why you posted a video of Will Zalatoris.
Are you claiming he’s a hitter or a swinger?
May I also add that although accelerating the clubface through impact has no major advantages in clubhead speed or dispersion (for off-centre hits), it can be good golf instruction. Many golfers hit ‘at’ the ball which can cause them to decelerate the club approaching impact, therefore it’s probably good golf instruction to swing with an intent to accelerate through impact.
I think lags last video with the young Asian college student nailed it for me. The pivot / low left shoulder squares the face. Had a feeling of lumbar being behind me and low at impact. When I had it synced up. It truly felt like the body motion was the face of the club. Great stuff, I’m done
I played w a 68 yo today that shot 68. I was even par going into 17 proceeded to double then laid the sod on 18 wedge nice fricken 75
After the round I asked him how he plays 17 bc I cant finish a round. Being around players that spank you is great for ur nerves let alone get lessons. Im 60 and got spanked by a 68 yo but got some good stuff to put in the memory bank next round.
When the clubshaft is at P3, just before impact… the wrists have to uncock downward to get to the ball… to hit the ball. If they don’t, we would miss the ball completely with the clubhead elevated above the ball as the torso rotates.
So when this uncocking happens, to get the clubhead back down to the ball… there is going to be some forearm rotation… it has to happen to hit the ball. It happens in unison with the uncocking of the wrists… they do this together in one motion…
The forearm rotation into the strike does not need to be focused upon at all, because to hit the ball… the wrists have to uncock and rotate into impact. If they are unocking downward, they are rotating also… or we won’t make contact with the ball.
Therefore, the only thing we have to focus on is rotating level with the shoulders and torso… and making solid contact with the ball. The frozen right elbow keeps everything in check and inhibits any kind of over rotation from swinger’s right arm throw.
Golfers trapped in a swinger’s mindset will struggle with this because “you can’t know what you don’t know”. You can’t feel what you have never felt.
This is why doing the proper drills can really help. They are universal for hitters and will improve spacial awareness, coordination, strength and repeatability.
