Jeff, are you saying that if the left wrist is bent … then it is “impossible” to be holding shaft flex?
Only question need to be answered is…
Do you think this bloke is trying to feel the stress in the shaft through and beyond impact?
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Here shows why dynamics rule over positions…
Positions would “say” left wrist bent… shaft can’t be loaded…
However, I have clearly demonstrated that the position of the left wrist doesn’t determine what the torso rotation is doing.
I often feel like I am trying to bring a cupped or bent left wrist into impact, and I can do this… and feel this… because my torso is accelerating… pressuring the shaft… because my wrists are NOT passive, relaxed etc. Here the wrists are acting as a support to the pressure and force applied by the torso rotation (orbit pull)… and I am not allowing them to act freely.
Post impact pivot acceleration is the King… not forcing the hands into some position that people see in still pictures…
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John,
You asked-: “Jeff, are you saying that if the left wrist is bent … then it is “impossible” to be holding shaft flex?”
To answer that question, let’s look at this animated gif that you produced.
If you look at how you start the motion of your hands/club, you have a bent lead wrist at start-up. Then you use the rotation of your torso to move the two shoulder sockets and you also simultaneously synchronously move the two arms in order to move the club handle inside-left. During that time period, you can be 'holding shaft flex" and thereby producing a condition of lag tension because your degree of lead wrist bending (extension) remains unchanged. In other word words, you are not allowing your lead wrist to rapidly bend (extend) just after impact.
However, if a golfer, who uses a weak-or-neutral lead hand grip, comes into impact with a slightly bowed or flat left wrist and the clubshaft is more-or-less straight-in-line with the lead arm at impact, but then the clubshaft rapidly bypasses the lead arm in the early followthrough causing a rapid extending phenomenon involving the lead wrist - as seen in those capture images of Knudson/Hogan showing that the clubshaft has rapidly bypassed the lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) in the early followthrough - then that means that the clubshaft is traveling faster than any pull being exerted by the lead hand at the level of the club handle. Under those conditions, I cannot perceive how it is possible to claim that the golfer is “holding shaft flex” and that a condition of lag tension exists.
You also posted these capture images of your “holding shaft flex” technique.
Between image 2 and image 4 I can believe that you could be “holding shaft flex”. Note how you do not allow the clubshaft to bypass your lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) and your lead wrist does not rapidly extend. Also, you have maintained a bent trail wrist during that early followthrough time period.
Here are capture images of one of Hogan’s driver swings.
Note that he has a slightly bowed lead wrist at impact and that he maintains an unchanged (non-bending) bowed lead wrist throughout his early followthrough action. Also, note that he does not allow the clubshaft to bypass his lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) during that early followthrough time period. Under those conditions, I can understand a claim that Hogan could be “holding shaft flex” and maintaining lag tension during the early followthrough time period.
However, I cannot understand how a golfer can claim to be “holding shaft flex” and maintaining lag tension in the early followthrough time period if the “lead hand has very little forward motion due to a stalling motion of the lead arm + the lead wrist rapidly and massively extends” immediately after impact, thereby causing the clubshaft to rapidly bypass the lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective).
Jeff.
Mr Mann, do you think Ben Hogan, in the swings above, is trying to stress the shaft through impact?
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Bulletfade,
You asked-: “Mr Mann, do you think Ben Hogan, in the swings above, is trying to stress the shaft through impact?”
My answer is that he could indeed be trying to stress the shaft through impact in those posted images. Whether he succeeds in actually “holding shaft flex” during the early followthrough can only be determined by looking at his followthrough images.
So, when I look at these two examples of his early followthrough capture images, I am willing to seriously consider the possibility that he is “holding shaft flex” in those images.
Capture image set number 1:
Capture image number 2:
However, I find it impossible to believe that he is still “holding shaft flex” in these followthrough images where the clubshaft rapidly bypasses his lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) very soon after impact.
Jeff.
This is Hogan’s swing early in his career when he was battling a hook. Not an ideal photo to be analyzing because his superior ballstriking didn’t start until later.
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feelversusreal,
You stated that his superior ball striking didn’t start until later.
OK - so, here are followthrough capture images from his famous slow motion video, which was filmed in his later career.
Note how rapidly his clubshaft is bypassing his lead arm between image 3 => image 4, and note how little his lead hand has moved targetwards between image 3 => image 4. I don’t believe that he is “holding shaft flex” during his early followthrough in that particular golf swing action.
By contrast, I can readily envisage that he could be “holding shaft flex” in his early followthrough in the following particular golf swing action - where his lead hand is not slowing down in the early followthrough and where the clubshaft is not bypassing his lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective).
Jeff.
His club is going past his lead wrist, that hasn’t broken down, in both the SWWOG and the bottom pictures and in virtually the same fashion. This despite I note you selecting some ancient picture of him and one from a more rearwards camera angle in the bottom series of pictures which accounts for the differences you point out lol. And which lead wrist is rapidly going from flexed to extended and pronated to supinated.
Well how about from this ahead perspective. Club is clearly advanced
well past the lead wrist. Presumably you also see post impact shaft stress?
And anyone who has seen the previous frame knows the hands were massively bent and rotated back and he is accelerating that club through the ball.
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Bulletfade,
You wrote-: “His club is going past his lead wrist, that hasn’t broken down, in both the SWWOG and the bottom pictures and in virtually the same fashion. This despite I note you selecting some ancient picture of him and one from a more rearwards camera angle in the bottom series of pictures which accounts for the differences you point out lol. And which lead wrist is rapidly going from flexed to extended and pronated to supinated.”
There are two reasons why a clubshaft can bypass the lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) in the early followthrough - lead wrist bending (flipping) or a rapid counterclockwise rotation of the lead arm/forearm.
The latter explanation pertains to the following two capture images.
If the clubshaft bypasses the lead arm in the early followthrough (from an angular rotational perspective) - whether it is due to lead wrist breakdown or lead forearm supination - then it cannot possibly be in a condition of lag tension.
In your last photo of Hogan hitting an iron, you stated-: “presumably you also see impact shaft stress”.
I can see the peripheral shaft bent backwards - presumably due to collision with the ball-and-turf. That pattern of peripheral bending back of the shaft after ball/turf impact does not mean that the golfer is using a “holding shaft flex” swing technique.
Here are capture images of Michelle Wie hitting an iron.
Her peripheral shaft is bent forwards in image 2 showing that she is not “holding shaft flex” in her late downswing. However, her peripheral clubshaft is bent backwards in image 4 due to ball/turf collision and it is not due to the fact that she is using a “holding shaft flex” technique.
Jeff.
The lead wrist has zero to do with holding shaft flex as I clearly demonstrated in my last post.
Jeff, what you don’t understand is that the golf swing is actually 3D not 2D.
In the 2D world of looking at golf swings on a screen… we only have up/down---- Left/right… not through the screen.
It’s the through the screen that you are not considering. By pulling the shaft hard left post impact with aggressive pivot rotation, this is the main ingredient in holding shaft flex. The left wrist can be flat, cupped, the shaft can be ahead or behind the hands visually in a 2D view. The acceleration is moving through the screen and away from you in 3D… which you can’t properly see in a 2D view.
Remind yourself that the club is working on an inclined plane that isn’t visible from a caddy view picture. That inclined plane gets flattened out in a 2D view.
This is why we study the golf swing from caddy and DTL view… so we can get a sense of the third dimension which is every bit as critical as the flattened 2D version (caddy view)
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John,
I totally disagree with your opinions.
I agree that the pull of the club handle is directed inside-left after impact, which means that it is obviously happening in a through-the-screen manner (= 3rd dimension). However, I cannot perceive that one can be “holding shaft flex” in that 3rd dimension if the clubshaft has bypassed the lead arm from an angular rotational perspective and if the clubhead end of the club is ahead of the club handle (where the pull is being exerted) in that 3rd dimension.
Imagine a child pulling a toy car along level ground using a piece of string. If the string is taut, then that is equivalent to the concept of lag tension. If the car moved faster than the child’s hand pulling the car, then the string would be lax, and not taut, and lag tension could not exist. If the child pulled the car up an inclined path that is angled 45 degrees (relative to level ground) then the same principle applies. The string would only be taut (implying the presence of lag tension) if the child’s hand (holding the string) was ahead of the toy car. If the toy car gained momentum (for some reason) that allowed it to travel faster than the child’s hand up the inclined plane, then the string would become lax and lag tension would not be present. The same principle applies to the clubshaft that is moving up-and-inside along the ~45 degree angle of the swingplane in the early followthrough. If the clubshaft gains a lot of momentum through impact so that it travels faster than the lead hand during the early followthrough so that the clubhead end of the club is ahead of the club handle in the third dimensional inclined plane of the swingplane, then lag tension cannot exist. That is what I believe is happening in those early followthrough capture images that you posted of Knudson and Hogan.
The clubshaft was traveling faster than their leading arm/hand through impact (from an angular rotational perspective) and it bypassed their lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective). Some biomechanical phenomenon had to happen to make it biomechanically possible for the clubshaft to bypass the lead arm as a result of its gained momentum through impact - either lead wrist bending and/or lead forearm counterclockwise rotation. If you look at Knudson’ lower radial bone in his lower lead forearm it does not look like it has rotated counterclockwise, but his lead wrist is obviously bending. In Hogan’s image, one can clearly see that his lower radial bone in his lower lead forearm has rotated a lot counterclockwise between impact and that early followthrough image, and he may have little lead wrist bending happening during that early followthrough time period. However, in both of those two pro golfers, the clubhead end of the clubshaft is traveling faster than the lead hand holding the club handle end of the club - as perceived from the perspective of angular velocity - and therefore I cannot envisage how lag tension can be present in those capture images.
Addendum added later:
Here is a copy of John Erickson’s image showing how he holds shaft flex pre-impact and post-impact.
Here is an enlarged image of the early followthrough time period.
Note that his hands are ahead of the clubhead at impact and also during his early followthrough as perceived from an angular rotational perspective where the clubshaft is moving up-and-inside parallel to the swingplane in the early post-impact time period. Because his hands are ahead and because the clubshaft has not bypassed his lead arm from an angular rotational perspective, the conditions for a “holding shaft flex” scenario are being met. Note that he does not allow his lead wrist to rapidly breakdown (extend) and he does not allow his lead forearm to rapidly rotate counterclockwise in his early followthrough and that prevents the clubshaft from bypassing his lead arm, which will cause the clubhead end of the club to get ahead of his hands from an angular rotational perspective.
Those conditions are not being met in those early followthrough capture images of Knudson/Hogan that John posted.
Jeff.
Let me chime in Jeffro. If ur claim is that because one sequence of Lags orbit pull swing doesnt look like hes got pressure in the shaft only he would know. Many great ball strikers have that tension more or less thru their career. Hogan best described it as fleeting. On the other hand, certain methods will”maximize” the sensations of pressure of the right while pulling of the left all the way into the finish. Many of us have experienced pressure “flex” in the shaft with just about every method used but some achieve better results. IMO, your trying to disprove something about Lags efforts to maximize and capture that tension to be repeatable. Barking out he cannot do that is silly bc anyone thats played and practiced this great game more than 2 hours in a range session has a hint of that experience. I can even flip it and feel the catapult of pressure in a moment of the arc bottoming. I like your diligence but me thinks it would be better used to add in a more positive direction please. My last 4 rounds have been 73,74,76,75 in a more Fred Couples flip motion and know its not as powerful as Lag is entertaining here. When Jimmy Ballard told me I must learn to spring the shaft better thats the goal. Better……gltu bro 
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The below are measurements made by strain gauges attached to a Driver and 5 iron for 9 pros back in 1999. The tool was called ShaftLab and could measure the lag/lead shaft bend and also clubhead droop.
For the 9 pros tested you can see that all the shafts show forward shaft bend (ie. Lead) and no lagging shaft bend approaching impact (no lag tension). Inverse dynamics also show that there is a net negative couple being applied via the hands on the grip approaching impact (see the typical graph below of a Major Winner). If you look at the blue graph, the couple (ie. basically a torque) exerted by the hands drops below zero (ie. negative torque) approaching impact which means ‘forward shaft bend’ (see images further below to give you a visual idea).
The physics says that a negative couple at the grip can only mean forward shaft bend (using Newtons 3rd Law).
Dave Tutelman (who is a golf scientist and expert on golf shaft technology) has a very useful website and here are some of the extracts.
The Swing (tutelman.com)
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Conclusion: the clubhead is pulling the hands around as fast or faster than the hands can move under their own muscle power. So the hands just can’t keep up well enough to apply a hit that could increase clubhead speed.
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A shaft is a string at impact! That means that, during the less than a half millisecond of impact, there is nothing your hands can do at the grip that would produce a different ball flight than if the shaft had just been a string. Any strength you want to exert on the clubhead needs to be done during the downswing; there is nothing you can do to help during impact
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Tom Wishon has been the Chief Technical Officer of Golfsmith, and now has his own golf club component company. His company is recognized as an innovator, and he is the world’s foremost advocate of custom fitted golf clubs. In his book “Common Sense Clubfitting” (chapter five on shaft fitting), he writes:
“The condition of the shaft being slightly bent backward with the head lagging behind the shaft is very rare in the game. This is because the swing skill plus strength that is required to maintain radial acceleration and the wrist-cock angle until very late in the downswing is such that very, very, VERY few golfers can do this. Far more common are the conditions in which the shaft arrives at impact either straight or slightly bent/curved forward with the head in front of the forward curve of the shaft.”
In other words, it takes more athletic ability than almost anybody possesses to apply a positive wrist torque late enough in the swing to be helpful. (If I may add my own opinion, not Wishon’s words: It isn’t just strength; it’s also speed. Late in the swing, centrifugal force is whipping the clubhead toward impact. The wrist-cock angle is being dragged out very fast, so it takes a lot of hand speed to even keep up, much less help it along.) One other thing he mentions: we can tell if the wrist torque is negative or positive on the basis of shaft bend. That is important, and we will come back to it later.
I hope that helps ABS forum readers to be a bit more broad-minded about what is happening in a typical tour pro golf swing.
I actually gave up 55 mins of my life and did watch one of Jeff Mann’s videos. It had its positives for what a tour player does in his motion. I can assure Jeff, if he just practices a few 430 path drills. He will feel exactly what he preaches from hip high to the follow thru. Pulling the handle in will give you that level hip pivot you preach. It will truly feel like your going into and beyond impact with a 2x4
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Dubious,
For sure, forward shaft bend and shaft droop is completely normal. I don’t think anyone argues that’s what happens in most, or nearly all swings. That’s what makes Lag’s claims interesting to many.
Who knows if it’s true, it’d certainly be interesting if someone went through the effort to get definitive proof. What Jeff has posted is not definitive proof.
In either case, the intention, it seems, is very helpful to Lag’s students.
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Dubious,
We are not talking about typical tour players… most are using swinger releases… so all those charts etc are not likely applicable.
Until you understand hitting… it’s just not going to make sense, and you will keep relying upon those who support swinging protocols…
Again…
I posted photos of holding shaft flex with a bent left wrist well past impact. If the wrists are firm and structured through the strike… which is what I teach… firm grip and this also stabilizes the clubface for off centered strikes… (Which is extremely helpful for scoring)
It’s the core, the torso/ pivot acceleration that is key here … not keeping hands ahead of the clubshaft. For a hitter, it has nothing to do with left arm vs shaft angles.
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@JeffMann I think you’re missing the point. Shaft flex is a byproduct of acceleration. In order to have control of this acceleration - you need leverage. This can happen in a variety of ways (e.g., Trevino, Hogan, etc.).
This is probably the most ideal in terms of 2D/3D because it’s obvious the leverage pull is toward the sky.
lagpressure
How do you define ‘Hitting’? Are you saying that you are applying active torque to the grip like a hockey slap slot with a split grip?
Or
Are you just thrusting /pushing the grip forward with your arms and hands?
Or
A bit of both using your arms and body pivot?
Remember that the quicker muscles are being contracted the less force they can apply. It’s called the Force Velocity curve.
Therefore, it’s going to be difficult to keep applying ‘Hitting’ forces/torques to the club the faster your muscles are having to contract to keep up with the club.
Personally, I don’t think any form of ‘Hitting’ is superior to ‘Swinging’ in generating clubhead speed. If it were, then I suspect at least some tour pros would be using the technique. Which golfers past or present do you think were ‘Hitting’?
With regards stabilising the clubface for ‘off-centre hits’, note what Dave Tutelman said about the club shaft ‘may as well be a string through impact’. There is nothing you can do with your hands for the 0.5 msec the clubface is in contact with the ball that will influence the clubface. The clubhead may as well be viewed as a free moving mass disconnected from the golfer for that incredibly short collision time.
I also looked at your video below
This is where the centre of the ball is actually hit by the toe with a swinging vs hitter protocol (which I imagine uses a firmer grip pressure to reduce clubface rotation through impact).
I have taken frame images and compared them as per below but I think the camera position has moved because some of the background patterns/indentations in the mat don’t look the same (see the red arrows). I drew white horizontal lines to join up the ball position markers and to get some idea of the angle of the ball trajectory.
I cannot see that much difference in the dispersion of the ball, but this demonstration is not very convincing because we don’t know for certain what the clubface angles and clubhead path were at impact. Further, the movement of the camera causes parallax changes which makes an accurate comparison very difficult.
I also noticed that the ball seemed to ‘blur’ more in the swinging image frames which suggests that it was moving at a faster speed.
To resolve this debate, it would be nice for someone to video your swing with a ‘Phantom Camera’ to check whether you can create lagging shaft bend at/through impact.