Yes, I get you mean.
If we repeated the demo with the arms lower but with the clubface open to its path, would it still be open to its path as the chair swivels? I think ABS takes this into consideration by adjusting alignment to cater for any open clubface.
Your an 18 handicap debating tour pros how a swingers technique is superior. Really?
Have you ever seen the movie Fox Catcher?
Yes, I don’t play very often these days, maybe 4 times a year and I can still hit 85 without any practice or even hitting a ball for 1 year at a time. I don’t use the detailed intricacies of biomechanics in my swing, just a general perception of what I must not do. I use external focus cues in my golf swing as per research by Dr Gabrielle Wulf and it works reasonably well.
I have a forum stalker that seems to follow me around on the web attacking me personally and has obvious apathy towards Dr Jeff Mann. Hopefully, that isn’t you.
As a mathematician maybe you can work out what the clubhead speed would be for just torso rotation moving the arms/club together about an axis of rotation going through the body (say the sternum).
Would ‘velocity = radius x angular velocity’ still be applicable?
What would be the radius from the sternum to the clubhead of a driver ? About 1.8m?
How fast can a tour pro rotate his torso? Maximum 400 degrees per sec approx which is about 7 radians/sec. Let’s make it 1000 deg/sec = 17.45 radians per sec.
Let’s do the maths: velocity = 1.8 x 17.45 = 31.41 m/s = 70 mph
Have I got that correct?
typo error - I should have said:
“I have a forum stalker that seems to follow me around on the web attacking me personally and has obvious ill feeling towards Dr Jeff Mann. Hopefully, that isn’t you.”
John,
You wrote-: "I know you are really caught in the swinger’s release stuff… and don’t understand the hitting protocol.
You can’t know what you don’t know."
What don’t I understand about the hitting protocol?
Why can I not know what I don’t presently know? Are you asserting that I am mentally incapable of learning something new that I didn’t previously know?
Jeff.
Gents,
Although I enjoy your proclivities for using scientific vernacular that I can’t understand, I can personally tell you and I’m sure others here would agree, BOTH release patterns work. We(ABS) think that a hitters release is better for US in regards to taking “timing” out of the equation. I have the highest respect for those who release horizontally because they have to spend a lot of time on the range trying to either keep their timing or to “find it”.
Ever since I’ve been drilling the hell out of Mod 3, I can feel acute pressures in my hands and feet. As a result, I now intuitively have permission to hit the shit out of it WITHOUT the fear of going left. For those of us who play competitively, this is worth its weight in Gold !
I do enjoy the scientific back and fourth in this particular subject where I need a bong and a thesaurus the do the proper deciphering from the scientific jargon. Me personally, John and Bradley’s teaching has helped me exponentially reach ball striking goals that were only in my highest imagination. Lastly, I’ve gained back a ton of “pop” as a result of a “hitters release”.
At the end of the day, if I can eliminate the left side of the golf course, I’ll be able to NOT have unconscious anxiety and the ability to let er rip. 
Probably – but here our simple model breaks down. That analysis would apply to somebody who had their wrists bound so that the club and left arm were always in a straight line.
PS Flaghunter: Sorry if you’re counting me among the jargon users. I try to be straightforward, and as far as my part in the discussion there’s nothing very complicated going on. I have a basic respect for those looking for concrete evidence, and in this case I think some pretty down-to-earth physical principles get at what Mr. Erickson describes.
First post and a question - what’s the difference between the ABS hitter technique and the DH method ?
Don’t both attempt to keep the club face pointing at the target as long as possible ?
Looper asked-: “*First post and a question - what’s the difference between the ABS hitter technique and the DH method ?**Don’t both attempt to keep the club face pointing at the target as long as possible?”
My personal answer.
In both an ABS hitting technique and a TGM swinging technique where the golfer uses a DH-hand release action (no-roll subtype) combined with a CP-arm release action, the golfer will be preventing the clubshaft from bypassing the lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) as the lead hand moves inside-left during the early followthrough. In both cases, that should allow the golfer to keep the clubface square to the clubhead path during the early followthrough. The difference is that an ABS-hitter will be “holding shaft flex” during the early followthrough (+/- accelerating the lead hand through impact) while the TGM Swinger will not be attempting to “hold shaft flex” during the early followthrough and he will not be attempting to accelerate the lead hand through impact.
Jeff.
Thank you.
Seems the only way to determine the distinction would be to ask the intent of the golfer as both appear to use CP release patterns. Correct me I’m wrong, but ABS uses Hogan as the best example of an ABS hitter. Is it possible to say (just from video) that Snead is also an ABS hitter versus a DH-er ? Seems to me that in both methods, the lead hand would be accelerating (perhaps not consciously) in order to prevent the club face from turning over even with proper rotation.
Looper,
You asked-: “Correct me I’m wrong, but ABS uses Hogan as the best example of an ABS hitter. Is it possible to say (just from video) that Snead is also an ABS hitter versus a DH-er ? Seems to me that in both methods, the lead hand would be accelerating (perhaps not consciously) in order to prevent the club face from turning over even with proper rotation.”
I don’t know how John Erickson can establish that a pro golfer is using a “holding shaft flex” technique simply by looking at 2D videos. The lead hand does not have to accelerate through impact into the early followthrough for a golfer to perform a DH-hand release action (no-roll subtype) combined with a CP-arm release action.
Here is Joaquin Niemann performing a DH-hand release action (no-roll subtype) combined with a CP-arm release action during his early followthrough.
Note that his clubshaft does not bypass his lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) between impact (image 3) and P7.4 (image 4). To make that possible from a biomechanical perspective, he must match the angular velocity of the inside-forwards motion of his lead arm so that it perfectly matches the angular velocity of his clubshaft in the same angular direction. There is no requirement that the lead arm must be accelerating through impact into the early followthrough in that type of DH-hand release action.
Jeff.
If you look at the recent video up to 1:34 posted below you will see that his upper lead arm is connected to his left pec as he rotates both his torso/lead arm/club together to square the clubface . That means the ‘torso/lead arm/club’ are all moving together at the same angular velocity.
Hitting and Forearm Rotation, How it works for Pivot Driven Hitters - YouTube
I suspect that he creates some clubhead speed from the get-go with the uncocking of his lead wrist but if he is squaring the club with his torso as shown in the above video, then the clubhead speed is limited to v=rw into/through impact (ie. clubshaft is limited to the angular velocity of his torso).
Have I made an error somewhere?
Yes, I think that the point is that the arm/shaft angle is continuing to straighten through impact, and the angular velocity of that straightening gets added to the rotational one. It becomes more difficult to calculate, I’d think.
I’ve based my interpretation of the ABS swing on the video JE posted and the question and answer below. I personally think the angular velocity of his club is much higher than that of his torso , therefore his torso cannot be squaring the club (ie. like a rigid rotating unit of torso/arms/club). If it did , his clubhead speed would be limited to the angular velocity of his torso.
Question I raised to John Erickson
“Can you advise whether you are just connecting your upper arms to your chest area as you use torso pivot to create clubhead speed (and also square the clubface) from your P3 position (while also uncocking your left wrist)? Are you saying that your upper arms/forearms are connected to your torso and the whole unit (ie. torso/arms) are being torso rotated together through impact without significant rotation of your left humerus/forearm in the shoulder socket?”
Answer:
"Essentially… yes… but to the best of our own abilities.
I’ll throw right arm at it if I have to to get the ball around if my body isn’t working as well as I would like…
But when I am really on my game… it’s very much torso rotation and very little right arm throw and very little forearm rotation.
But as I described in the video… the uncocking of the wrists feels like forearm rotation because it is happening on an inclined plane and the forearm rotation and uncocking happen in unison…
I would NEVER teach a student to focus upon uncocking their wrist as any kind of independent motion. I can just imagine how horrible they would throw from the top if that were even in the sentence."
So your question is?
Your explanation of the ABS technique would not create the clubhead speed that you are generating in your own swing.
The way you’ve defined the mechanics for squaring the clubface with your torso seems similar to this video by Gary Pinns who uses it for pitching. He is also squaring the clubface with his torso rotation, but his clubhead speed is limited to the angular velocity of his torso .
I am suspecting you are using different mechanics to what you feel you are doing.
Hey everyone… I did the ABS program back in 2011 ish. Completed all the mod training. Received a bunch of help from Grady @secret in the dirt. Great to see this forum updated and ready for the new generation
I went all in on ABS. Heavy persimmon driver, old school blades bent 6 degrees flat. Really enjoyed my time with this. I really think this program is a huge benefit to big over the top golfers. If you complete the program is is virtually impossible to be over the top again during the drilling sessions.
My only issue is the club would get so flat with the open face protocol. That it turned into a cast. Which was more apparent from the front on view. Where my club head and shaft would dip below my hands in transition. From down the line it looked very eloquent. But the front on in looked like a major power leak. So basically I over did the wrist cock move in the transition. And it caused me to flip massively after impact once I would take the impact bag away. So I sat and thought of a way where I could utilize my training without physically having to slot the club so manually. I changed my grip to an very weak interlocking position. Where the V’s were pointing more at my chin versus my standard right shoulder.
Now I can bring it down with a slightly open face slotted with no hand manipulation. I can aggressively accelerate into a low left shoulder finish with a open face club leaving my shoulder plane. Granted I have to turn level left hard at times. But I have little fear of post impact flipping anymore.
Not sure if that was acceptable. But seems to work well. If you struggle with being a big flipper. Than this program to become a hitter can be very difficult.
My other issue was knowing when to pivot after dropping into the right leg in transition. Since my hips were always slow and had that massive Early extension look. Have to feel like I’m
Squatting and turning my right foot towards my left knee almost immediately in transition. Not an easy move and still doesn’t look like a pro pivot. But it seems to be almost enough for my everyday play.
Just some changes I did on my own. But a great program imho
Thanks Lag
Not sure how to edit on here yet.
But with my grip at address. I would make sure my left elbow pointed towards the target. And my right elbow away from the target. With the my weaker grip I felt very locked in. Than i could do the drills and feel a freedom at impact. Where I could body and hand release with no fear of the club having a massive flip roll over.
I know I’m not the perfect ABS hoganesque swing model. But my own changes made this more user friendly for me
