Just remember that the bomb and gouge guy is back hitting persimmon again in TRGA, and not launching it 340. The equipment rules take those guys out of the game. A guy playing out of the trees all day is not going to beat me hitting down the middle anytime soon. Trees don’t let people off the hook easily. Punching out or knee high rough. Every time a guy does that and makes bogey, that is one less birdie I have to make.
I guess I don’t see how taking a stroke penalty and going back three clubs even with getting full relief is getting off the hook. I’ll take that guys lunch money all day long. Remember, it is much harder to hit persimmon straight especially with a smaller clubhead.
Why are there hazard stakes at all? What really is the point if you are allowed to play your ball if you can find it?
The stakes basically say that if you can’t play it or find it…you can take a forgiving drop compared to going back to the tee if it is deemed lost or OB. It doesn’t make much sense. Better to remove the stakes and just play golf.
I remember playing a tournament in Canada where the stakes basically ran through the middle of the hazard. The terrain was all the same. Long grass, wild shrubs and so forth. If you were on one side of the stakes you could ground your club, on the other… no. If you took relief, the two club lengths, you were essentially still in the hazard. It was completely ridiculous. I don’t like the idea of taking a penalty shot and not then having full relief. This is a perfect example for full TRGA relief. I simply don’t see it fair that full relief is not 100% granted if you are in fact occurring a penalty shot. If I hit the ball in the garbage, fair enough. But then still having to drop in garbage, with a blocked shot under a tree or whatever is not constructive. The USGA option suggests you could always go back to the tee which then becomes a pace of play killer, and a discrepancy in what the penalty should actually be.
Think about it…
What happens if you simply remove all the stakes on a golf course? Just play or don’t play it?
Red stakes actually take fear out of the game and are contrary to the principle of play the ball as you find it.
This is exactly what I was getting at with my situation at The Lakes…
Did it really go in the hazard?..opinion was based on discussion, guesswork and probables. Did we choose the correct procedure?..who knows…we will never know because no-one had an exact answer as to what exactly happened to that ball
It took us 5 minutes looking and then another 5 minutes discussing.
In TRGA rules I would have just said…OK…we know it went right here near the edge somewhere…we all agreed on that…if it is in the hazard or not…I will go drop one 30 yards back giving myself a 6 iron into the green instead of a 9 iron or wedge from where the ball ‘should’ be… I don’t have to worry about where it crossed?..did it cross?..did it really go in the hazard at all?
I would have still been penalized AND lost distance AND I would have saved close to 10 minutes and our group would be in position and not now chasing to catch up because we were then immediately told by an official we were behind our allotted time, so hurry up and get back in position
There are lots of minuses and plusses and everyone has an opinion but for simplicity it doesn’t get much easier than that… whether the ball was in the hazard or lost I am playing the ball from a spot as provided and ALL competitors can then use the same principles and then not knowingly or unknowingly play my next stroke from a position that could or could not be correct… my example used would be the same in a tournament or at club level as none of us could visually tell what exactly happened to the ball, all we knew was it was close to the hazard edge, there was no splash and a marshal heard a thump near that area where the ball landed…
the only difference with my situation compared to your club golfer is there could have been cameras filming my stroke that we could use to certainly rectify the situation perfectly- however that would mean going to the truck, rewinding and reviewing the shot, watching what happened and then making as true a decision as we could based on what we saw on film instead of with our heads like we tried to do…and it would probably be dark by then
The thing I find most frustrating about playing golf is hitting a drive and having it just go off into the rough, and then not finding the ball. Basically my round is ruined because I can no longer post a score, as there’s no way I’m going to walk back and play another shot with people standing on the tee waiting for me. If I’m in a tournament I just about always play a provisional if I’m not on the fairway because it’s the only way to avoid that situation, plus I get some extra cheating practice in too.
The other rule I really hate is the one about whether the ball went in the hazard or not - it says something about it being a fact whether it went in the water or not and we have to be just about certain. That’s rubbish and everybody knows it. There are so many times that there is long rough around a hazard that it’s often impossible to be really certain whether it made it into the hazard or not. More often than not golfers take the favourable option that the ball made it into the hazard.
The TRGA rules deal with these situations beautifully. And on Styles’ course playing that hole with OB right and trees left, I would certainly feel punished if I was playing my 3rd shot to a par 4 from 30 yards back down the fairway. Pace of play and simplicity would return golf to be more enjoyable. I’m all for it.
hmmm, having an opinion labels you as being argumentative it seems.
Lighten up Hugo, we are discussing the rules here, it was the reason I suggested the thread. I think we all agree that the rules are far from perfect, but for the vast majority they are doing a good job.
You’ve failed to understand my point regarding the hole I mentioned at my home course. Under the current rules, bombing it up the right and not keeping it in play means 3 off the tee with the same problems as before, OB right and trees left. I have seen club golfers hit two out right and then hit their 5th from the tee into the trees left. Are you seriously saying that playing their 3rd from the middle of the fairway 30 yards back from your, mine or Lag’s excellent tee shot is a fair penalty? hell, you could have hit a great tee shot but just slipped under a tree on the left, now you’re chipping out sideways and playing 3 as well!
As Bom said, the TRGA rule imo lets poorer players ‘off the hook’. Playing the 12th at my home course, I usually play a 3 wood, keeping it in play leaving myself a 6 iron or less to the green. Remove the more penal consequences of the current OB rules and I’ll be hitting driver every time knowing I’ll probably not make worse than 5 and 4 is still a real possibility even if I went what used to be OB.
I have maintained all along even back as far as the Las Vegas Open thread that I thought the TRGA rules were fine for those events. Its their event, they are not seeking to be sanctioned as an event by anyone but themselves so why shouldn’t they make up their own rules? Same as those modified stableford events I have seen played in Australia where there are more points at stake for making Eagles and Birdies. Even Long Drive have theor own rules regarding equipment and what counts or not.
Teddy, why would you not hit a provisional ball if you thought there was any chance it might be lost?
The most frustrating thing on a golf course is to be behind the idiot who had the opportunity to play a provisional but didn’t. In my opinion, that guy doesn’t deserve to be allowed to finish the hole because his actions have held the entire course up!
Teddy, how more punished would you feel teeing up again, facing the same challenge and now playing 3?
I’ve heard golfers complain that so & so competitor played a provisional every time the ball didn’t hit the fairway. That’s understandable because it seems to be taking advantage of the provisional rule. I’ve also seen a player hit a ball far left on a par 3 and play a provisional right next to the cup. We were all instructed not to look for that provisional, because if we’d found it, as you know he’d have had to play it. So the provisional is abused. I also feel more relaxed playing a provisional as I think there’s a chance I’ll find my first ball so I can let rip with the 2nd, invariablly hitting it long and straight down the middle.
Regarding that hole on your course, my response is “so what”? I’ve always considered that playing 3 from the tee for an OOB situation was excessively punitive and so for me the TRGA rules are an improvement. In the end though all that matters is that the TRGA rules speed up play, simplify, and give a reasonable punishment for a bad shot. Funny how on tour there are very few OOB shots and yet they can sometimes hit it left or right 100 yards, while always having ball spotters to find their ball.
Finally, if you change the rules, then some things will be easier and some things more difficult, perhaps. It’s absurd to argue that hole n on course X will be easier due to the change of rules, therefore those rules are no good. On the other hand, it is reasonable to argue that the rule will be easier to apply in the case that so and so happens on hole n at course x therefore the rules are better.
Yes I have seen this too, and another reason for the absurdity of the provisional ball rule.
In the history of the game, the provisional ball rule has not always been in play. It’s still an experiment in my mind, and not a good one.
In that example, would the fact that he has hit his provisional ball closer to the hole and said don’t look for the original ball not achieve exactly what you wanted - ie increased the pace of play?
A ball cannot just be deemed lost … it only becomes lost once a stroke has been played with a provisional ball from a point past where the original ball may have lay… or 5 minute search time is up
If I was in that group I would go find the guys ball as soon as possible therefore that ball still becomes the ball in play and the provisional ball becomes null and void… he is cheating the rules by just declaring a ball lost… as a 5 minute search period is permissible until it is automatically deemed lost…if he races up and putts his ball in the hole from this situation 1) he has played out of turn and 2) is cheating the rule to gain benefit from his poor first shot
Under TRGA rules of not hitting a provisional ball this occurrence could never happen so no undue advantage could be gained
It’s not taking advantage of the provisional rule because one is not allowed, by the rules, to play a provisional every time the ball doesn’t hit the fairway.
Guidelines from the ruling bodies instruct courses not to have rough adjoining fairways long enough to make balls hard to find. If courses choose to ignore this, then they will have speed of play problems.
And someone mentioned earlier about taking a drop from a hazard still leaving you in the kaka. Guidelines from the ruling bodies also instruct courses to make sure trees, bushes and long rough is included in the hazard to avoid this, and to minimize the times there is uncertainty as to whether the ball was lost outside the hazard or not.
I have seen the provisional ball rule abused many times… if not… just to take another practice shot on the golf course.
It happens more than you think.
I think Steb suggested players would be taking advantage of TRGA as much as they could, but I think TRGA is a much tighter ship than what is going on now. Players are asking for all kinds of drops these days. When I was on tour 20 years ago players were calling over officials if they had a muddy lie in a fairway. I did it too. I remember a rules official coming out with a spray can and giving me relief once right in the middle of the fairway when my ball was in an indentation with some long grass that was like a bit of a sink hole. It slowed up the golf course, I got my relief because I was trying to get relief as anyone would under USGA rules. However, I would much prefer everyone play the ball down always for all the previous stated reasons.
The big question is this…
Are the rules just fine as they are?
Or should they be re defined as Nicklaus has suggested?
If the USGA doesn’t budge, do we all just grin and bear it?
Should there be a competing organization?
If so, how should that best go about?
Big money invested?
Grass roots?
Word of mouth?
Revolution?
Boycott?
I think it’s good to get people thinking about it.
I think a persimmon tour as I have proposed and am working on could be a significant step in raising awareness of the downfalls, pitfalls and failure of the USGA on many levels such as gear, rules, course architecture and so on.
Upholding a more traditional version of golf is a noble cause the way I see it. Much more so than the USGA and R and A
have been sculpting over the last two decades.
Top courses, significant prize money and play off a TRGA rulebook and welcome to a new game. It’s going to happen I believe. Maybe it’s my American upbringing, but I don’t care for monopolies. Especially when they smell corrupt and clearly have suspicious intentions. Time to re think some things.
I would rather actively do something than only complain about it. We played real golf with real prize money last week in Las Vegas on a real golf course with real gear and real shotmaking. Now 4 TRGA events have been played. By this time next year, maybe 6 or 7. Baby steps? sure, but all babies start off with little steps.
Another beautiful thing about TRGA… because it guarantees that full relief is taken, from a position back in play. You don’t need “suggested guidelines” from “big brother”. Play it… or don’t play it. Dig it out or take your medicine. But if you take a drop, you will always get fair and complete relief.
For the better players… universal drop procedure is not going to affect scoring much if any. For the amateurs or hackers,
it’s a godsend. It really makes for a more enjoyable experience even in a casual round. And even putting with the pin in allows a player who is playing a solitaire or solo round to play by the same rules as a TRGA pro event. That’s a beautiful thing. No walking back to the tee… no discrepancies. Saturday morning, soloing around late Tuesday afternoon, TRGA World Masters pro event… same rules, simple, works in all situations, and allows all golfers all the time to easily play within the same rulebook. It makes more sense, it’s more logical, it’s more practical, and it’s more enjoyable, and it’s more traditional.
Unfortunately the majority of golfers simply want to hit the ball. Just as they don’t want to walk between shots or put the effort into becoming true ballstrikers, not putt out and use mulligans instead of playing their mess. No do they wish to put effort in to learning the rules either. They want it all handed to them. Anyone looking to buy shares–look for the golf simulator companies–that’s where it’s all heading.
If we work on a majority wins scheme, the rules have to be simplified as that’s what the majority are asking for. However they are also the ones who demand relief from anything on the course that hurts their score such as footprints in bunkers and divots. They demand ball washers, yardage posts, seats to sit on whilst they’re waiting and then demand relief from them. So the rules get extensive.
So we have total contradiction as far as the majority is concerned. We here are simply in little niches with our views based on how the game should be, based on our beliefs, personalities and let’s admit it, personal strengths.
I had a 35 handicap new golfer in my group on Saturday–he landed in a bunker and had a stick right behind the ball. He quizzed that he was of course alright to move the stick, I said no and he spat the dummy big time and proceeded to make 8. This was a new golfer.
Playing the ball down always makes you have to learn different shots… hitting out of bad lies, divots… you might even be tempted to carry a “beater” club to hit out of rocks or other undesirable situations.
In Vegas I hit a two wood standing on a cart path that ended up 3 feet from the pin for an easy eagle. Had I taken relief, I guess I would have holed it?
I think it is because new players see the pros taking all kinds of drops on TV that they then afford themselves the same luxury.
People look to the pros to set an example. The tour sets a bad example with slow play, and too many complicated drops and situations in my opinion.
Boy, does this thread move fast. It’s a fair point about Persimmon and distance, and I’ve no doubt that you’d take that guy’s lunch money, but you’re a good player.
A stroke penalty and loss of ground is getting off the hook if you’re a guy who launches a couple o.b./in the crap, and are sitting in the middle of the fairway hitting your third, instead of hitting 3 or 5 off the tee- and if he then makes 5 or 6 birdies with this ‘strategy’, a good player is going to feel like he’s getting screwed. That can happen with or without Persimmon.
You guys obviously don’t see how this is at all possible or likely, so this is just going to have to be a difference of opinion. As they say, it is what it is.
Cheers…
I am no expert on rules but I do get Bom’s point of view. Even with persimmon (on a sub 7000 yds course) one person can go really after every par five. Now if the person is good player he is only going to misshit into OB/Hazard a small percentage of those. So lets say 70% of the time he is assured of a birdie and with the TRGA drop he will still have a high percentage of saving par if he does get into th truble. Remember he is going after it so he probably has already covered the 30 yrd distance penalty.
