I was thinking earlier that the last at Sawgrass would be way less scary with the TRGA rules. Not that it isn’t basically an unfair hole to begin with, but it is fun to watch. The other thing is that I’m not even a huge fan of o.b., I think it’s a crappy idea unless the line genuinely does border the property. Back in the late 90’s they did away with internal o.b. back home(at least at my course) and even though the idea of internal o.b. is completely ridiculous, taking it away did subtract from the last hole at my home course. Maybe it all just depends on what you know. One of the things that I don’t like about the TRGA drop rule, and really that’s the only one(though Steb’s point about the spike mark fixing was a good one- though less pertinent in the modern game) is that as a kid learning the game, if he/she knew that hitting it in the crap had no real consequence, it could have a significant opposite effect on how the game is played, than the ABS thinking is trying to promote- and one that I agree with. I guess that’s where I see this one as a sticking point- it seems so unlike the ABS mindset, and unlike what I like about the demands of the game in general. I’m all about simplifying the rules and keeping things moving, but there are standards that I see simply as ‘golf’, and can’t see a way around- and that’s really because it would seem too easy, which is an odd thing to argue against, I suppose.
Bom, the Australian PGA’s Director of Tournaments was just saying the other day he’d like to see a basketball type shot clock introduced. I too like the idea.
The great thing is that the Rules already allow the player to be penalized for taking too long on a shot, which means Tours/Committees can introduce a shot clock on a whim. That is not normally the case.
I agree with you, it’s people taking too long over shots and just the general ambling which is killing the game. Low marking juniors marking and aligning putts from 6 feet, seniors hitting shots beyond their failing eyesight, carts (when courses insist they stay on paths). I don’t see why the game of golf has to change to cater for ignorance and selfishness.
There is no doubt the rules of golf could benefit from a rewrite–any system that grows and grows always has to as a more optimal design can be seen with hindsight. But it’s a super major task that would have the ruling bodies really with no idea where to start. That’s not undermining them, it’s just extremely complex.
Loopholes would appear in the new design, patches would have to be made, then another rewrite, then more patches and so on. The current rules have evolved to where they are and will continue to evolve. Harrington’s ball move will undoubtedly trigger talk and a new decision possibly be introduced to prevent it happening again. The Rules make no claim to be perfect.
But personally I like that if I go in a lateral water hazard that I have 5 options. It’s part of the puzzle considering what’s the best play, it’s part of course management, it’s part of golf ability. The game’s got too much braun in it now anyway with everyone smashing drives. No one said golf should be all braun. If someone else thinks 5 options is too hard to learn then fine, just learn one–that’s all you need.
I am not understanding your statement here…
How can a stroke penalty and three clubs distance be of no consequence?
Please explain for clarity…
thanks
I definitely think there’s something in this idea, though how on earth it would be enforced, I don’t know. I’d hate to get to the point where there’s a shot clock buzzer or we have to count in 100’s of a second to determine the validity of a shot, and I fear it could go there in the long run. It’s important to look down the line, say 20 or 30 years, to see the real consequences of these things. I think it could work with some sort of ‘honour buffer’, much like the way honour is used in the game now. Say if the shot clock was 45 seconds, or whatever it would be, then there’s a 10 second buffer beyond that that’s within the legal time frame, but that players don’t screw with. They always work within the 45 seconds, so if they go over by a few seconds then it’s still cool and there’s no hassle. It would require a player agreement or understanding. It’s complicated making rules because of their universal nature, and also because of the human urge to take advantage of the legal limits- something that people are entitled to do… hence that honour buffer.
Lag, in fairness, I didn’t say there was no consequence, I specifically said ‘no real consequence’, and I stand by the statement in terms of it’s overall impact on the game and it’s mindset. As it stands, everyone knows when they stand on the tee, that by and large, they’re going to have to hit a tee shot into play on some level and at some point. If it’s a fairway surrounded by crap, with no hazard, then part of the pressure becomes knowing that you’re going to be on that tee until you get a ball in play. This impacts everything from club selection, to attitude, to even your own perspective of your ability, and even your actual ability. If a junior golfer coming up through the ranks, learns a game where at absolute worst, they’re going to be hitting their third shot from the middle of the fairway, then it’s just a different game from the one we learned. It may make sense to us on some level, but we’re talking about people who’ve never picked up a club before, learning what the game actually is. Losing a ball, whether it’s in a forest, a hazard, or o.b. is of consequence to the mindset of the game. And specifically to the idea of coming down the stretch. This is just how I see it, I’m not saying you have to agree or anything, but that’s my view. If the whole goal is speed of play, or simplicity of understanding the rules, then I do think there are better places to tackle the rules as they stand than with this one.
Overall, it’s obviously a fairly specific point that I’m making, and one that may come up only rarely in practice, but I’m looking at the collective impact it would have on ‘golf’ as a game, and I see it as significant, and negative. I can’t help but be drawn to those situations where this rule would’ve altered the outcome of some big events, majors included, and wonder whether or not that impact would benefit the game.
If the rules are the same for EVERYONE and SIMPLE what does it matter
TRGA basically has ONE main rule…You hit the ball from where it lays OR you take a one stroke penalty and from where the ball is deemed to be you go back 30 yards and outwards
This one rule eliminates the need for hazard markings… worrying about 'Is this an animal scrape?"…" where did that ball really cross?"…“Am I in line with the pin”…“This should be G.U.R”…
You still get penalized for the obvious infringements such as moving your ball whilst addressing it, improving your lie, building your stance and so on… but these are all easily monitored by your playing partner
The basic drop rule eliminates any real questions about where to drop…speeding everything up and making it understandable
Doesn’t college football have a different set of rules regarding challenges, celebration penalties, overtime procedures compared to the NFL
Doesn’t college baseball allow different bats to the pros
Doesn’t college basketball have the 3 point line in an entirely different position compared to the NBA
What is wrong with having some different rules?
The huge problem with golf is that besides tournament golf there are no referees as such…the players are meant to monitor themselves…and because the players have done a shitty job of monitoring it themselves and would crawl over hot coals to win their $5 match and are trying to gain advantage of the rules or bend them to their advantage or pretend they never tucked a branch behind their back when addressing a shot or they drop the ball down the trouser leg and say 'Here it is!!!"… or they argue and argue about where their ball went and “I think it crossed the hazard over there and not here”…then all these countless side rules and definitions and decisions would not have had to of been made… that really very few people understand and it confuses everyone.
If the rules that you have in place in a sport can’t be understood or even obeyed to their fullest written law by 65% of the golfing population then they are wrong and need adjusting.
In all fairness that is what TRGA rules try to do…keep it simple …keep it real…keep the arguments amongst the golfers in the group to a minimum and in the end the best golfer on the day still wins…if everyone is worrying about the repercussions of penalty drops then they don’t have their mind set on playing good golf anyhow.
Like I said I took ZERO drops at The Vegas Classic…so it made ZERO difference… now could I have called an official; in and asked for a free drop for a poor lie on a few holes that probably should have been marked G.U.R…ABSOLUTELY… but I didn’t… the rules were you play the ball or you take a penalty drop and go 30 back… you learn to improvise and not just use the rules because you have a bad lie
I also have a good example of this from the recent Australian Open at The Lakes
1st hole… 1st round
The hole was strong downwind so I decided to hit a 3 wood so I wouldn’t hit it through the fairway into the waste bunkers on the right
I tugged it a little and it hugged the water line. It was approx a 255-265 yard carry over the water. We see NO splash so we walk off the tee and up to our balls.
I can’t find mine?
The marshall up there says he heard it hit but never saw it. It is not in the fairway. It is not in the rough around the water. Where is it? Remember there was no splash and it is water all the way basically from where I hit the shot from at the tee to where we are looking.
So we have a rules official with us…we all bang our heads about what to do…we are now holding up the next group to tee off which is the Senior group and then followed by the Ogilvy group…so we are ruining their preperation and willingness to tee off plus we are now 10 minutes behind the group in front already…
We look at some facts or thoughts…well there was no splash…it could have flown the water…or could it have hit in the mud on the edge of the water…is it buried in the rough outside the hazard… did it carry the hazard and if so where…if it didn’t carry the hazard where did it last cross…where do I drop…right here because it may have kicked in or way back near the tee or actually on the tee again because it could be a lost ball… did it carry the hazard entirely and then run over the hill and into the next part of the hazard
A million questions…a million answers…based on all the facts or maybe facts we came to a conclusion…it doesn’t matter what we decided based on what my playing partners thought and the rules official thought, I didn’t make the call as I wanted them to make the decision for me…was the final decision right?.. maybe…was it wrong?.. maybe
Under TRGA rules this would have been a non issue…where we believed the ball to be go out and 30 paces back and drop…DONE
This idea of play it as is…or 30 yards back is starting to look more and more appealing- especially if it speeds up play.
It sounds like it would and I’m all for that.
What would happen if your 30 yard back point area had casual water, or GUR?..would one continue going back to find suitable ground, or off to the side a little bit.
Hugo, the fact that you didn’t take a drop is largely irrelevant as the result is the same under either set of rules.
Pretty sure everyone here is happy the TRGA have their rules and good luck to them do we feel they should be adopted for the game of golf? Not for me.
I think your example actually points out the potential flaw in the TRGA rules. As you say, you drop 30 yards back in the middle of the fairway where you think the ball finished. Luckily you had a marshall, in non tournament golf there is no marshall. So player A thinks his ball is 30 yards further down from where his opponent player B thinks it is - how is that dispute solved? Both players have a vested interest in ‘winning’ where they feel the ball finished.
If the same players will do anything to win $5 under the current rules, do you reckon they will suddenly see the light under TRGA rules or more likely will they use the rules even more to their advantage?
The 12th hole at my home course is a good example of where TRGA rules make the hole easier. There is OB right and fir trees left. The fir trees are dense and lowest branches are a foot off the ground. If you hit it in the trees, most of the time you are chipping out if you are lucky to get a gap. The penalties for hitting it right are obvious. Under TRGA rules, I’d whale it up the right, if it stays in, great, if not, I’m playing 3 with maybe a 4 iron in my hands instead of facing the same challemnge again.
In fact, thinking about it this way, I’m a convert - where do I sign up? 
Then again, we’re not really supposed to make this game easier are we!
hey rat man, there is no such thing as casual water or ground under repair in TRGA. If you went back 30 yards and had a bad lie due to GUR you need to go back another 30 yards.
I guess that theoretically it’d be possible to end up 30 yards from where you played your initial tee shot lol!
We’re going to have to look at this again 
Styles,
I was going to write something again but it seems you love to bring out the negative in everything without looking at the bright side of things…whatever…in my opinion what happened at The Lakes could have been defined as cheating… as we had NO idea what happened to ball … under TRGA rules we had a clue as to the vicinity of the ball so play away
There really can’t be a much better example of how screwed up the golf rules are.
If you want to blow it right on your 12th hole go right ahead…play for the trouble and waste strokes accordingly…you will be farther away from the hole doing that version than hitting it in the left trees and chipping out as you suggest still probably making a one stroke extra score on the hole…or you could play for fairway and green that always works in golf 
There is casual water if you read the rules correctly- 15 yards free drop
Again Styles- who cares less if they are the same rules for everyone?
What would happen if after that first hole at The Lakes I played great and won the event?..quite possibly by getting a good ruling that was only based on circumstantial evidence… Did I play that 1st hole within how the rules are written?.. I don’t know?.. I used a marshall, my 2 playing partners, my own thoughts and a referee to come to a conclusion that may or may not have been correct… If I won that event would people say I cheated?.. or that the rules were abused?.. could I have been disqualified 2 days after the fact because someone in the gallery came out and said where the ball really went and that I played my next stroke from the wrong position?..Why should a referee ruling in this instance be the ultimate guideline…so… if he gets it wrong it’s OK, but if me or playing partners get it wrong, I could get dq’d?
As for ‘thinking’ where the ball went as to a drop procedure…I know where my ball goes distance wise…that isn’t hard to work out when playing golf if I need to find the vicinity it is in and then head backwards 30 yards. It is very easy to see where a ball enters trouble…just sometimes hard to find it…so you go from near where it enters and walk back 30… is that so hard?
I think you just love arguing for arguing sake… You obviously have a bee in your bonnet about Lag and his ideas for some reason or other…Go play it one day and see how your score differs…it is amazing how everyone is so caught up on the penalty side of things…I would believe that at any given tournament the player with the least penalties normally wins because you aren’t giving away un-necessary strokes…so go play some decent golf with some decent ball striking and penalties don’t exist and the TRGA drop rule won’t even come into play for you
The TRGA rules will be for TRGA events. I am not suggesting that the USGA adopt these rules, but for those who prefer to play in under or around 4 hours in a competition, even with amateur players in the mix, and play by a set of rules that are very simple, clean, fairly penalizing, understandable, and are void of all the silliness of USGA rules, then TRGA can really be a breath of fresh air.
Arguments about where to drop in TRGA are a lot less likely to occur because that argument is going to center around only how far back. When a player is going back 30 yards, whether they are 25 or 35 is not going to make much consequence in their approach shot. People sense this quickly and it becomes a non issue.
If a lake or other hazard spans the area where 30 yards back would be… you find the best possible or reasonable option off to the side, or if there is no side, then simply use reasonable and prudent judgment. If the option is to only go back 15 yards compared with 120, the answer is obvious. Most situations on a course could be spotted quickly and a drop area can be defined in unusual situations, just like the current set of rules. If the dispute still exists, a ruling can be made after play by a designated rules official… you only need one… and a decision is made as to whether or not the player was attempting to take advantage of a situation unfairly. If so… they are penalized one shot. End of story.
I will never support having to walk back to the tee. It is simply a disaster for everyone involved on the golf course. It is an absolute slow play mega issue and should never happen. Not for the weekend golfer, not for the tour event. It’s impractical, golfers are scorned if they do follow the rules set down by USGA - R and A and walk back to the tee. Tour events it negatively effects all the players teeing off behind that group. There is nothing good about it. It’s poorly thought out, and in no way can the positives out weight the negatives.
It really is a bit comical to hear an argument how making the game easier in only one situation regarding OB… in the spirit of protecting the traditions of the game, and that same player tees off with a frying pan and a golf ball that goes 40 yards farther than it did just a decade ago which obsoletes all the great traditional golf courses.
You have to remember also that the OB rule was only a one stroke penalty for much of the 1960’s. This rule has waffled back and forth I believe several times in the game’s history. It’s really nothing new and does have historical precedence.
There was also a yardage penalty in play early on for hazards (at least 7 yards), so again, there is traditional and historical support for such a rule.
As far as the fear factor… I really don’t want to be hitting the ball lying three in the fairway with a 4 iron approach instead of a 7 iron. Maybe you do?
I find it very penalizing, and chances are I may miss the green, not get up and down and walk off with a 6. I would much rather be down the pipe, hit one in close and make a birdie, and gain a 3 shot advantage over the guy who blew the tee shot right and took the penalty.
You can still easily have 3 shot swings or more on one hole. It simply does not lessen the drama of a competitive event. If there is a hazard by the green also, a player could make 7 or 8 finding both situations on the hole…
However, this is not going to take a lot of time… calling over an official, holding up play with provisionals or searching for multiple golf balls, walking back to the tee and so on.
If fear here is really the issue, and over time it seemed that more fear needs to be put back into the game… then you could still keep the same universal drop procedure, but implement different colored stakes and offer a variety of penalties such as 3 shot penalty for blue stakes down the left, and 5 stroke penalty for short of the green with the pink stakes.
I would rather see that than the current situation and 900 pages of rules decisions and guys walking back to the tee.
The drama thing in my opinion is a non issue but an easy fix with the above example if over time it needed adjusting. I don’t see that really being necessary but it would scare the daylights out of a lot of guys if there was a 5 shot penalty for pink stakes short of a green on Sunday 
I’m moving on from this rules discussion. There’s nothing more I can add when these kinds of conclusions keep being drawn from what I’m trying to say. No hard feelings at all, it’s just a difference of opinion and the wheels are starting to spin.
Your honor, Your Honor 
Here you can read some interesting changes the game has seen over the years. Obviously changes have been made because there are issues that keep coming up over time. The rules regarding lost ball, OB, hazards have changed and waffled around over time.
I don’t think it is unreasonable to keep the debate going in the game in general. There are a lot of interesting subjects to ponder if you look at historical references.
I’m such a glutton…
The thought that I can’t shake from this whole drop thing is this: You guys keep saying that if it’s the same for everyone, then it’s fair. But it’s just not the same for everyone over time. It doesn’t reward the very style of player that ABS promotes, the guy who has it on a string off the tee, and it lets off the hook the prototypical modern player that ABS hates, who throws in a few big numbers during a tournament to go with his multiple birdies, because he’s trying to hit it 9 miles on every tee. You guys keep talking about how it’s all about playing a piece of property and playing it as it lies, but I just see that claim as completely contradictory to this rule. To me, that drop rule seems like the ‘anti play it where you’ve hit’ rule. Sure it speeds up play and makes things easier, but easier and simpler isn’t always better. Over the course of a year, this rule gets more bomb and gougers onto leader boards, guaranteed.