Or the calibre of players who used to make the trip to Australia. Pity. The Australian Tennis Open shows that if the event has prestige, they will come.
So Lag, if someone finds their ball unplayable in a little bush after overshooting the green by 20 yards, where do they play from?
30 yards from the front of the green back down the fairwayā¦ or the closest point if there is a hazard in front. If a hazard were all encompassing, then there would be a drop area designated that might be less than 30 if 30 is not possible (Island Greens)
Iād kind of checked out if this threadā¦
I donāt see where my point is saying that o.b. is required for drama- thatās nowhere close to what Iām saying. And matchplay is just a different game, it builds over the course of one round, not the whole week, and itās exciting for different reasons, though I would say, that it doesnāt work that well for viewing, because sort of like a blow out football game, it can be over early and it only takes one guy playing badly to make it pointless. Itās exciting when it goes to the last few holes, and thatās about it. PLaying it is obviously a lot different, and I do enjoy having played it a lot as an amateur. So the finishing in 14 idea is sort of irrelevant in a way, because regardless of what trouble is or isnāt around, thatās just not all that exciting. Itās nice to watch great golf, but thatās different excitement if you know what I mean.
The final few holes in a regular event is 4 days in the making, so the pressure has built and it can go anywhere, and often does. My whole thing with that rule is the ceiling that it puts on where that pressure can go. In a way it feels sort of the way pure communism feels, in that it limits the downside, but with that loss, you also lose the high side. To see someone take on a golf course over 4 days and keep it together all the way to the end, is something we all appreciate here without question. There doesnāt have to be o.b. or even hazards for the danger of losing a ball or hitting it into crap to exist. If you know that no matter what you do off the tee, at worst youāll be hitting your 3rd shot from the middle of the fairway, makes EVERYTHING different in terms of the internal battle and work thatās required to get over the line.
The other thing is that the 3 shot swing thing you pointed out, Lag is dependent upon being in the same group as the closest guy, and thatās not always or even often the case. If the closest guy is in already and 3 shots behind, then itās basically game over with that drop rule. Not that it wouldnāt be anyway, but like the VanDeVelde situation showed, maybe not.
The VanDeVelde situation is actually the perfect example but everyone keeps talking about it from his second shot, but thatās not where the TRGA rule wouldāve ended that tournament. If thereās no o.b. left on the last, then he doesnāt bail right, because he doesnāt need to. In fact with the lead he had, all he has to do is hit the biggest sling hook he wants, and if it goes o.b. then no worries. With that rule, the tournament was over after 17, no question about it. Thatās what I mean by boring. The thing about golf thatās great is that you have to finish out and you just never know whatās going to happen. With a lot of other sports, it can be done long before the end. It can with golf too, but that unknown is always there, and as weāve seen so many times before, itās still on all the way to the end.
I asked a question a few pages back and I donāt think it was answered, but what is the actual point of that drop rule? Is it purely for speed of play?
Bom,
Iām confused hereā¦
you said that OB doesnāt need to exist to make it exciting, then you said basically that the presence of the OB is what made it exciting in the Van De Velde situation.
As far as the blowout situationā¦ couldnāt that work in the opposite way where it stops a guy like Seve from getting tossed out of an event because he made a 9 on Friday? Maybe he makes a 6 instead and is there in the hunt on Sunday?
Can you give an example of how one of the great Masters finishes would have been diminished on the back nine using TRGA universal drop?
Just curiousā¦ we really poured over all this stuff a few years ago when we were putting it together thinking of all the pros and cons.
Iām not sure it would speed up my play Bom because when I find my ball is unplayable, itās often behind the green. So in my bush example that would typically mean a compulsory walk of 20 yards overshoot + 40 yard green + 30 yards penalty = 90 yards, or even 140 yards at the 5th at St Andrews, instead of just dropping within 2 club lengths.
Well,
I would certainly vote to introduce some new blue stakes to set up on the last hole that would be a 5 shot penalty and still play the TRGA dropā¦ than to give that up and re introduce the provisional ball rule which is the worst golf rule in the game for slowing down play.
If excitement really became an issue, which I donāt think it doesā¦ there are better options than the provisional ball rule.
VanDeVelde,
I still think that he could have made 7 using TRGA. His second whether left or right comes back 30 yards short to play hitting 4. He could chunk it into the front bunker and not get up and downā¦ or blade it long and three putt coming down the hill. That would be 7.
If you are going to blow itā¦ youāll find a way.
Or lets say he finds his ball under the grand stands WITHOUT a free dropā¦ and has to play a shot through the bleacher supportsā¦ he might ping pong it around in there thinking he can pull it off and doesnāt and make a 9? Who knows.
I also disagree that golf should offer a free drop for the convenience of a gallery stand. That to me is very un golf.
So if I go and play that course, do I get to hit it right of the green and get a free drop because if this were The Open there would be grandstands there? The presence of the stands should if anything make it more challenging not easier. Would be great to see him under the stands trying to pitch out or through the structure in hopes to save a shot rather than taking a drop and a penalty plus 30ā¦ which like Two said is often a more uncomfortable situation than back there hitting a full SW with a ton of spin on it.
No doubt the rule does change thingsā¦ and even strategically, but I still donāt see the downsideā¦ especially if you consider the massive upside of keeping play moving AND simplifying the rules to the point you basically donāt need rules officials ā¦ only for the most bizarre on situationsā¦
I also think the line of sight rule (USGA) allows too many options for a player, to go back and play the club they are most comfortable with. Thatās really ridiculous in my opinion. I have seen guys go back so that they could carry over a line of trees and stuff like that.
Lag,
Just because I used that example, that doesnāt mean that definitively I think that āo.b. makes golf exctingā, I canāt see why that would be inferred. Iām just pointing out a situation where that rule wouldāve changed everything. In my mind, itās important to look at specific examples and ask how they wouldāve been altered- itās kind of like a free trial run. Obviously the Masters is exciting for all sorts of reasons that I donāt really need to explain because we all know, and theyāve got nothing to do with o.b.- though that has all sadly changed with the changes in the course. That seems to me to be where your point is not really connected to the discussion. I donāt see the point in asking why a change in an o.b./hazard rule would effect holes where thereās no o.b. or hazard, because it doesnāt apply. And also, the Masters is again a very specific example, and just because that wouldnāt be changed doesnāt necessarily mean the rules are good. Thereās just no real trouble off the tee at Augusta, and no real opportunity to lose your ball as far as I can tell. Iād have to give a bit of time to think through the different hazards to see if anything would change, but off the top of my head, I donāt think so because the hazards are by and large around the greens or on par 3ās, and the TRGA drop would be very similar to the drops theyād take anyway- so again, I donāt see a whole lot of reason for using Augusta as a measuring stick as a result.
Iām not saying rule making is easy, but seeing as this is there to be discussed, then thatās what Iām doing. The difficulty with rules is that you canāt cherry pick examples because they apply everywhere.
I am still wondering what the actual point of the rule is? Is it just for speed of play?
Lag, you quoted the example of a player also spraying his provisional (on the opposite side) and having 5 minutes to search for both.
In practice however, professionals rarely spray two in a row, on opposite sides plus often there are spotters or spectators watching the ball land.
In amateur golf, very rarely do players use anywhere near their full 5 minute quota and those who spray lots tend not even to know about provisionals to start with, just drop another ball or walk the hole.
So what else flames your hate of provisionals?
Lag, he wouldāve never had that second shot with the TRGA rules based on the rationale I gave in my previous post. He wouldāve had no reason to bail rightā¦
And I totally agree with the stand drop rule change- in a way VDV got what he deserved because he was aiming for the stands to get his drop- that should never be allowed!!
The other thing is, whatās so bad a provisional balls? I think itās one of the better rules in a lot of ways. Slow play, if thatās the issue, essentially comes down to how long it takes people to hit the damn ball. I played 9 holes last night and it may be the last time I play with random people- itās staggering how long it takes the average person to hit a shot, I canāt handle it, and it invariably ends up being a bad shot. If anything the TRGA should introduce a time limit to hit your shot- Iām not sure how theyād enforce it, but the more I play with people, the more I think thatās the number 1 rule Iād like to see in the game. Some might say that rushing would make people hit bad shots which would take more time in the long run, but I really think that peopleās games would benefit greatly over time by speeding upā¦ I know it would make playing more bearable for me, which is really what itās all about, right? 
The points are many.
Of course to speed up play.
To stop players from EVER walking back to the tee.
To stop players from holding up play by calling over a rules official.
To make drops easy to understand.
To simplify drops and eliminate the NEED for rules officials.
To allow both pros and amateurs to play by the same rules in a practical way in both casual rounds and competitions.
To show that professional golf can be played successfully outside of USGA Rules.
To eliminate the need for any stakes on a golf courseā¦ allowing a player to simply play a piece of property.
Bom said
They should be forced to watch the video of Count Yogiā¦didnāt seem to hurt his results, in fact, may have helped cause them, not unlike Moe. Thatād speedāum up!
The rules of golf should be simple.
Players should be able to play by the rules and the rules should be the same from the weekend game to the pro tour.
If I play chess, itās the same if I play you or a friend in a coffee house, or in a tournament.
But do you really expect amateurs to walk back to the tee if they lose their ball? or find out their ball was OB when they thought it was in bounds?
To play by USGA rules is simply not practical. If every weekend golfer pulled provisionals, walked back to the tee to hit second or third ballsā¦ actually pulled out their rule book for all the variety of options and drops for hazards and so forth.
Not practical for daily golfā¦ and why should the tour be playing a different version than the weekend version?
I donāt believe the rules should be complicated at all. As an organizer of eventsā¦ my interest is to preserve the integrity of the game, promote playing the ball down, simplify the rules, speed up play, and make the experience more enjoyable while still requiring the skills of good shotmaking.
The provisional ball rule allows a player to hit another ball if they THINK the ball might be lost. As far as I am concerned, this is like taking a practice hit on the course. I have seen this abused where a player just wanted an extra swing to work out a swing kink. It happensā¦ āIām going to hit a provisional.ā I donāt think you need to Joeā¦ āWeāll Iām going to anywayā.
Believe meā¦ this happens and itās not a good thing.
Second,
Players even at the pro level DO at times hit one right, then over cook one left and sayā¦ weāll find one of themā¦ but they donāt It happens,
and even once is too often. All this has to do is happen just ONCE and it holds up the entire golf course by 15 minutes. Two or three groups on the teeā¦ usually a rules official is out there slowing things up. This doesnāt need to happen ever. And if I can eliminate that in an event I host or am involved withā¦ I am all for it.
Better to hit one ballā¦ look for itā¦ canāt find itā¦ donāt want to play itā¦ then drop and go on. Simpleā¦ no rules officials, no complexities, easy to understandā¦ still a fair enough penalty, speeds up play, everyone loves it.
In three years and 4 TRGA eventsā¦ not one complaint about the ruleā¦ none.
4 hour competitive rounds even with mixed amateurs. Itās like playing golf in heaven.
Speaking of rules in todays game where Harrington just got a DQ. I beleive thats wrong to have people phone in the next day or after the round because they saw it on TV. What if your not on TV can we assume all the players are doing the right thing? Players call penalties on themselves and others because they protect the field, its a gentlemans game and etc etc but TV dosent protect the field?
The rules also state that a drop should be done with the arm at 90 deg or higher what if he does it at 85deg will a caller call?
And, neither one of us has ever hit a provisional. We play the ball as it lies. We hit, and walk to our respective shots. We hit when ready, and the best partā¦we walk the 18 holes in about 3 hours. Sometimes we even get to walk down the fairway together. 
Jack Nicklaus appeared Tuesday morning on Golf Channelās new show Morning Drive.
One of his comments is germane to this thread:
On golfās rules: āThe whole rule book should be redone. The game should be simple. A USGA guy told me last week that itās harder to pass the rules test than the bar [admission] exam.ā
Do you get extra credit for citing Carbolic Smoke Ball ?
As kids, we played hit the ball from where sits, or add a stroke and move the ball to a spot (never closer to the hole) where you can hit it.
Imagine the derision heaped on me the first time I encountered others playing ārulesā golf.
Regards,
hawg1