Robbo, if you are talking about ‘knock up’ games then absolutely people play ‘knock up’ rules. I am talking about competition and tournament golf.
Couple of quick stories from my home course. Friends of mine were playing the 17th hole, it was a competition day. There were some older members playing the adjacent 2nd hole. They were looking for one of their groups ball. My froiends were waiting to tee off and were watching the three guys search when the guy whose ball was ‘lost’ picked up a ball, held it in th eair and announced “I’ve found it”, then proceeded to set it back in the fairway (not the rough where it had been). As soon as my guys finished they reported the incident to the pro shop an dthen wrote a letter of complaint. The ‘cheat’ received a letter from match and handicap inviting him to explain himself. He didn’t do so because he died of a heart attack shortly after reading the letter! Were the two related? I dunno, I guess we’ll just leave it at ‘cheats never prosper’.
Another story, an ex-member was spotted using a ‘foot wedge’ several times during a hole. As a result of complaints, reports, investigations etc, he was banned from playing competitions and eventually left the club. Cheats never prosper.
A very good player, was pulled up at my home club when on two par 5s he had the wrong score on the same round. He was caught, we all knew it and he resigned because he became a total pariah in the club. Cheats never prosper.
I guess the next question is if anyone on here has knowingly taken an incorrect drop during competition or seen someone else cheat and turned a blind eye?
Have a situation where you’re “highly suspicious” something happened but can’t prove it? Yes. I contend those are the majority of cases you’ll run into. Difficult if not impossible to prove and you often end up in a “stand-off” as there are no cameras to provide proof. The marker can refuse to sign-off on the players scorecard, but even in those cases I think the committee will let the score stand.
No doubt your best protection in any situation is to have a thorough and complete understanding of the rules should you have to “call something” on someone.
you MUST go back behind the water hazard keeping the point where it crossed in line with the hole… or… retee…or…IF they have a drop zone (which nearly every course that is not in the midst of a tournament would NOT have) you can use the drop zone…so Lag is correct with his assertions based on his example on both players …the dribbled shot and the decent shot that just trickles in basically receive the same penalty in that instance.
A lateral hazard is of course different rules again…but who gets to decide one hazard is more important than another?..the USGA?.. The owner?.. the designer?.. the club captain?.. the head pro?..the barman?..why does one deserve a yellow stake and another a red stake?..why different penalties when both balls are submerged?..wouldn’t one easy understandable option for both situations be better served?
yes but in Lag’s example the ball crossed all of the hazard and spun back into it. Yellow or red there’ll be a drop near the green, not at the point it first crossed the hazard.
I’ll have a virtual glass of red whilst we discuss!
Yellow stakes will not provide the same drop. In that case the player MUST keep the point of entry between him and the hole on his drop whether it cleared the hazard at one time or not. Even if he hit the middle of the green and spun it back into the lake. Usually that would mean going back to the “front” area of the hazard to drop.
16 at Augusta “might” have some areas right of the lake that, with a left pin location, would alllow a drop without going all the way back to tee… Two would know better than I.
Augusta 16th drop…Robbo…Possibly…but probably 100 yards for the next shot and like u said only for a far left pin and a big pulled (for the right hander) miss in the water
As I mentioned in ‘tournaments’ that are properly set up they will have a drop zone in place for this…front of tee at Augusta 16…ladies tee on the left at Sawgrass 17th… that most players would use…talking par 3’s here
A drop CIRCLE would provide the same drop position. I thought Styles was saying the drop option (with no drop circle in place) would put the player in the same position for that hazard regardless of the stakes being yellow or red.
The nice thing about TRGA is that you can simply play a piece of property, and you don’t need any stakes or markings anywhere, no drop zones, GUR … nothing… you just play and go, other than obvious course boundaries such as fences and roads.
You either play it or you don’t and take a drop back in play. Simple. When a players goes back 30 yards people aren’t likely to be getting bent out of shape over club lengths, which side of the area to drop and so forth.
If a player is obviously taking little steps trying to reduce 30 into 20, then a competitor can check that easily enough. That would be about the only issue.
The grounding of the club is another issue. Obviously in sand grounding would likely improve your lie… but it would not improve your lie necessarily in a grass hazard or water. Would you really want to put your club down in the water, then take a backswing? Not likely. Long grass is not going to disappear when you set the club behind the ball. I don’t think you would want to risk getting snagged in the grass on the backswing. I think not grounding the club is fine in a well defined bunker, but the rest of it seems silly.
Did a players club touch a blade of grass in a hazard? What really defines grounding the club and getting penalized? What if the wind blows some heather and that touches the shaft of the club? This is all the silly stuff the USGA loves to get involved in and punish innocent golfers. A lot of this stuff is just ridiculous.
I think you have to take into consideration a players intentions to some extent. In Two’s description about Greg Norman getting DQed, was he really trying to cheat by having his back heel inches inside a hazard stake?
Yes… but to clarify, in Lag’s example you’re not saying yellow stakes would allow a drop near the green if there weren’t a drop circle correct? Yellow stakes do not provide the option to drop at point of entry into the hazard in the case of Lag’s example.
We have a 180 yard par-3 at a course I frequent that is consistent with Lag’s example. A cold top off the tee would require the same reload as one who may have landed within 10 feet of the pin but a little left.
The yellow stake issue is common. Shots over a canyon or water. Point of entry could penalize a player for their shot shape or spinning a ball back into a hazard. There are not always designated drop areas or they may not be well defined.
This is not a good rule. It’s unfair and and makes little sense.
Boms point about not having the two shot OB rule on the last hole was a topic much discussed at the TRGA round table.
However, if you look at Augusta, you don’t have realistic OB on either 17 or 18 if I remember correctly, and we have seen many epic finishes there over the years, especially in the persimmon age where guys were hitting mid or even long irons into 18. Think about Cabrerra playing ping pong in the right trees. I disagree that you need white stakes on the final hole to make it exciting.
Another argument would be match play. I assume then that you would not find that exciting either? Most matches don’t even see the 18th hole. When I beat Billy Andrade in the US Amateur we didn’t see 14 through 18. If excitement on 18 defines the thrill of competitive golf, then match play should be done away with.
You got the bad side of a subjective calling. I once brought a similar situation to this up for discussion amongst rules officials and there was a divided view. Personally I believe you had sufficiently identified your ball.
You have the facts wrong here. Norman thought he had to drop again as his foot was in the hazard, so he did. Water hazards only are concerned with where the ball lies, not the stance. It is important redropping doesn’t occur unless permitted so bad lies can’t be eliminated.
With the Norman thing it was actually January 1990…not 1989 and I know I am correct on the ruling because I was there listening about it all because the officials were telling The Shark right in front of me what had happened.
It may have been changed since then???for a hazard… but when you take relief from a hazard or even G.U.R or a cart path or a stake tree…you have to take full relief and that includes stance… that’s how they got the Shark on that one… his feet were just inside the hazard line (not the water) so they said he didn’t take full relief…absolute crap call in my opinion
In his book about Business and The Way of The Shark (or whatever it is called) he makes mention of it as happening in 1989 and being on the 14th hole of the 3rd round and that he inadvertently grounded his club…(see box below) … whatever he says there in his book about the incident is dead wrong… I have the video of that event …I have myself teeing off on the 14th hole of the 3rd round and he is in the commentary booth with Geoff Roach discussing my tee shot…so he certainly didn’t play the 3rd round whatsoever…I remember that event well because 1) I was hoping to play with The Shark or Strange in the final round if I had a good 3rd round and 2) I ended up playing with Rodger Davis in the final round ,I came 4th and had a good result whilst Davis tied Strange and then beat him in a playoff…
Norman’s mishap was actually in the first round, apparently he had his feet/heels still inside the hazard line after taking relief and he was dq’d before teeing off in Round 3 (2 full days after the occurrence!!!) … because they said he of course should have been penalized and has now signed an incorrect card…So he never even teed off in the 3rd round but did commentate on TV with Ben Wright and Brian Crafter and I believe Curtis Strange played as a single at the end of the field seeing he lost Norman as his partner for the day.
It makes no difference either way as he was disqualified for another technicality that shouldn’t even exist.
Sometimes I really don’t understand you Lag. Reading this you are asserting that Bom thinks there should be OB on every 18th hole - he has never stated that! In fact, what he was talking about was Garrigus on the 18th at The ST Jude Classic and again, the incident in question didn’t actually concern an OB situation but a water hazard! No one on this thread has stated that white sticks are essential on any hole, nevermind a final hole to make it exciting!
Wth regards to Augusta, in 1991, Ian Woosnam hit a persimmon driver miles up the hole, it wasn’t until Tiger in 97 that anyone got as close and as a result the hole was lengthened and believe me, those guys are going in with long irons these days again!
Why do you accuse Bom of not finding matchplay exciting? You need to go back and reread the posts people are making amigo.
This is the crazy turn that these threads take sometimes.
I’m interested in why Bom would think this is true. If hazards are more of a penalty, and there is no GUR relief, how would this make golf less exciting coming down the stretch? No doubt that in TRGA, OB is less penal, but there are no realistic OB situations coming down the stretch at Augusta… yet we have had some of the most exciting finishes ever there. How does a universal drop subtract from the thrill? I hit a couple poor drives last week and was penalized plenty. My drive on 17 cost me a shot of getting within one shot of Bradley going into 18. I took a risk on 18 a bit close down the water line to set up getting home in two and just leaked it slightly, and with a bit of a bad kick, trickled into the lake and cost me my final chance. I was certainly penalized for less than perfect execution. Any player could just chip the ball down the fairway and make a double with zero risk on any hole. A player could still find a hazard off the tee and the green and make a big number. Boring coming down the stretch?
Again I am interested in why a universal drop would make golf less exciting. Going back 30 in many situations could make it more exciting… especially with the approach shot after an errant tee shot. It would bring more long iron shots into play which is very grounded in ABS principles.
And it would be a crap call, however it’s one of the classic myths of the rules that you have to take stance relief from a water hazard and that includes in 1990 (I just double checked the 1988-1992 Rule book). GUR, cart paths and staked trees do require stance relief and is why many get fooled. This Norman incident is commonly quoted as a example of the different handling for water hazards and all references to it I have seen, including the snippet you posted, said he took an illegal drop, not that he didn’t take full relief.
The Shark was representing Palm Meadows or the parent company at the time also…you think they weren’t pissed that their main man had got dq’d from their big event… That was a good tournie…the biggest prizemoney event in Australia in those years…course was just OK but hey…I’d play down a freeway with cars whizzing by for 1.5 mill back in 1990 … I came equal 2nd there 2 years later behind Ronan Rafferty and won $132 grand…not a bad weeks work… incredibly we don’t have a tournament worth any more prize money than that 20 years later
… I came equal 2nd there 2 years later behind Ronan Rafferty and won $132 grand…not a bad weeks work… incredibly we don’t have a tournament worth any more prize money than that 20 years later