The Nautilus, the Golf Swing, Golden Ratio, Fibonacci seque

Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking
381

Regarding the hip to neck pivot axis, when I am able to practice and play again here is the approach I plan to use.

During the transition I will strive to position the lead hip joint socket for the pivot axis tilt I want, into and through impact, using a pivot axis in the region between the 7th cervical vertebra (C7) and the lead hip socket. I will strive to hold the shoulders ‘closed’ until the impact pivot axis is established and ready to begin accelerating through and beyond impact. The pivot axis tilt must be sufficient to accommodate the lie of the club shaft and to allow the lead and trailing elbows to orbit through the vertical space above the lead hip joint socket.

The intent after transition, as the hands reach hip height, will be to accelerate the pelvic lever around the lead hip joint socket and accelerate both shoulders’ rotation around C7, and continue accelerating both the pelvic lever and shoulders until the lead and then trail elbows pass above the lead hip joint.

The above conditions will be sought to enhance accelerating the lead and trail elbows with efficiency and precision, bringing them as near as possible to the pivot axis, with a minimum path length from the top, through impact.

The red and yellow cones will be a mental crutch to encapsulate and obscure the preceding details to reduce distraction: the red cone is the upper body action position, and the yellow cone is the lower body contribution. After sufficient training, the cone imagery may fade away safely. If difficulties arise, the cone imagery can be recalled. If that does not resolve difficulties, details can be consciously retrained and cycled through the cone imagery fade away.

Other important factors about an effective hitting golf swing are absent to focus more on exploring a neck to hip joint pivot axis. Recent pivot exploration derived because substantial posts by several contributors and ABS training so far have overthrown what I believed coming into ABS.

382

Interesting stuff Teebox, I don’t know that I really understand all there is about spirals but I suspect there is a lot more that we ‘miss’ than what we think, or see, when it comes to a spiral’s involvement with us and our environment. Let me change that, I DO KNOW, that I really DON’T understand all there is about spirals… :laughing:

Found this the other day I thought was interesting. I think fine art students would be able to find bunches of natural spirals in their sketches relative to the human form either from a dynamic perspective, or static. Good stuff Teebox. :slight_smile:
teespiral.jpg

383

If the cone model is relevant at all, the lead elbow might trace a partial Archimedes Spiral path, with a brief shortcut inside the spiral path for more speed, between transition and passing over the imaginary red cone’s apex in the lead hip socket. The cone and Archimedes Spiral path brings to mind lagpressure’s post about the conch shell. I do not see a spherical rhumb line path fitting the cone model, but none of this is ideal, only rough imagery, and maybe the sphere has more to do with the swing than I see.

The sketch of twisted blocks reminds me of my decrepit concrete spine.

The dude needs clothes.
.

384

Watching the path of Ben Hogan’s lead elbow from various directions, in slow motion video, from transition to finish, seems to show the path is approximately parabolic. If so, the parabolic path would not be an Archimedes spiral, but there’s a risk I don’t understand enough to assert that. Documenting or illustrating the path will take more time if I can do it at all. Anyway, if the curved path of the lead elbow is parabolic, does this contribute to acceleration of acceleration of the club head? Is this true for golfers who can only manage a more or less hyperbolic path with the lead elbow? Can well placed acceleration of acceleration explain large distances achieved by slightly built golfers?

385

You get a great view of Hogans lead elbow in this gif, you can see how he rotates it from away from the body.

Hogan3.gif

386

Interesting gif NRG, it almost looks like he wiffs above the ball.

387

Interesting stuff here perhaps. Not exactly on topic, but close enough for nosey rats.

Stumbled upon this and find some of the workings fascinating. From what I gather, a semi-ellipse having radial, or dimensional, length differences, and weight/mass differentials, seems to want to vortex, then move, in one direction more easily than another. Seems like this gizmo even puzzles the experts about how it works. The rattleback only knows spinning, or wobble.

No wonder I can’t paddle upstream. :laughing:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovZ_n6X__9c[/youtube]

388

Ok, Teebox Filler, back on topic. :laughing:

Maybe you can assist with some research when’in and if’in you have time. Have you ever considered why bisquits are put into a cardboard tube container that is spiraled. I have, and don’t know precisely why, and I can’t find much on the web discussing what I assume should be discussions about contained and expanding pressures and spirals, and the interplay between the two entities within a tube shape. Remember I talked about spirals relative to forward travel when discussing the ball washer way back. This look now at spirals would not be about travel, but about containment and explosions, and why manufactures settled upon a spiral tube for storage. Interesting stuff if you ask me…no one is asking…but who gives a rat’s ass…this stuff is as real as snow is white…or actually clear! Some 'morning bisquits:

bisquittube.jpg

About 50 years ago I worked as a ‘bagger’ for Krogers. That was in an era when a cashier had one hand on the register punching in the prices, and the other hand on the product doing a visual scan for the price, and once the price was obtained, she would send, by way of a push, the product down the cashier chute toward us ‘baggies’. One day I recall a tube of bisquits being thrown down and one end of the tube hitting the end of the chute with enough force that the damn thing ‘exploded’ sending the bisquits out the opposite end in rapid fire succession toward the cashier. A vivid memory, but what I don’t know is IF the cardboard was spiraled back then, or if spiraling is something newer and the bisquit tube at Krogers was a solid piece which might enhance the ‘bazooka outcome’ Any ideas here Teebox? Wish I new a container expert, might be interesting to look at the tubes history relative to spirals. Maybe the spiral tube container helps to eliminate a bazooka gun…don’t really know, but would like to. :slight_smile:

389

…and while you are diligently searching for answers Tee on the mystery between a spiral and cardboard tubes…you can listen to this as background music…The Tubes, and a Tee…just seems to make sense.

sorry, couldn’t resist. :laughing:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eHue2jSw3s[/youtube]

390

How does the nature of the rattleback behavior apply to recent posts about the lead hip to C7 pivot axis exploration?
In relation to the golf swing, here’s what exploring the rattleback translates into for me: Instinct or training enables us to establish conditions to help ourselves recruit leverage, gravity, and our center of mass to efficiently move our body so we may roll or fly a golf ball.

CAUTION: Proceed at your own risk; the following is tainted with untrained guesses, raggedy observations, questions, and no answers.

If there is a sideways push applied against a light color quadrant, the rattleback will spin in the same direction of the push until it stops due to friction. If instead, a sideways push is applied to a darker color quadrant the rattleback’s spin will evolve into a wobble and eventually the spin reverses direction.

What is wobble?
What factors lead to the wobble and the direction reversal from pushing on the dark quadrant edge?
Are the masses of both dark quadrants equal?
Are the masses of both light colored quadrants equal?
Is the sum of dark quadrant masses greater than the sum of light colored quadrants or vice versa?
Do different masses of dark and light colored quadrants cause wobble?
If so, are different masses the main cause?
Is there supplementary mass inserted within the wood?
If there is supplementary mass inside the wood, where is it distributed, more than one place?
The rattleback’s shape implies the center of mass is below most places where the rattleback may be pushed. Wouldn’t a sideways push on any edge wobble the rattleback vertical axis at least partly because any push would be above the rattleback’s center of mass?
What is the role of the table’s friction in the direction reversal?
What else applies?
Can explaining the wobble transitioning into a reversed spin be done with conversational daily language?
Break time, not enough break time in the universe.

391

As I said, the rattleback was a smidge off topic, although I suspect there are some interesting finds in there. I will have to do some more digging around in that area, but I think how the mass is settled in the bottom determines in large part if there is wobble, or spin then wobble, and return.

Kind of like weight on the R leg down during transition. Maybe this one attribute alone helps to foster the move ( although I don’t want to call it a spin ) to the left, and getting to the left too early would cause ‘wobble’ although we wouldn’t recognize it as wobble. So I think it is related in some way, just not too sure in a specific sense.

So I would be happy with putting this aside and concentrate on the biscuits in a tube. The questions are, at this point, why do manufactures use a cardboard spiral when they could have just as easily used a single seam down the length of the tube…and who invented the biscuit tube spiral. Anyone out there beside me and Mr. Boxtee that knows why. :slight_smile:

392

…it might be a manufacturing process.

As soon as I logged off it dawned on me that toilet paper tubes may be spiraled…so…off to the reading room, and sure enough, a spiral tube of Charmin.

So it probably goes to a manufacturing process because like the ball washer, travel about a cylinder is with a spiral, because without we would be standing still.

Glad I got that figured out maybe…will look into the spiral packaging process. :slight_smile:

393

This is how the spiral wraps are made

youtube.com/watch?v=1lLskkHMQng

394

Probably is directly related to manufacturing as the video seems to suggest Mashie. I emailed a firm I found on the web that specializes in spiral tubing…they will probably think me off my rocker, which I am on good days, but will see what transpires. Would like to find which firm first utilized a spiral tube and why. Is it a cost factor…

…or is a spiral stronger than a straight tube based on how the seam orients along the tube/mass. That might be a possibility to consider just like a triangle is stronger than a square. So maybe a spiral is stronger than either one, or some other defined shape, since a seam is an axis in and of itself despite a rotational axis, but a spiral seam is ever changing and each point along the spiral seam is on a different ‘axis’ versus a straight seam in which each point of the seam is on the same axis. Is Hogan’s plane just a small segment pictorially of a very large spiral just like holding a toilet paper tube sideways and seeing the same basic ‘plane angle’.

Too many questions, and observations for some, but not for me.

Hey Teebox Fillsand:

Found this while stumbling around the web, and I had no idea they existed. A moving spiral ‘rotating around’ a fixed spiral.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiYfMGssd9I[/youtube]

As I am sitting here, I wonder if spiders ‘shoot out’ spirals, or are they just straight tubes.

Also have some thoughts about how the hands work when we ‘spiral wrap’ a grip.

Spiraling out for now TB… :slight_smile:

395

I am liking retirement a lot… :laughing: Interesting morning.

Never knew that spiders have spinnerets that appear to work in a spiral fashion. Also, when a spider spins a web, the first thing it does is to form a Y support system for the entire web. Here is a little picture on it, and what I find most interesting is the initial stage of web building looks eerily close to an X Y Z axis…or three dimensions.
spideraxis.jpg

Now carrying on, the spider builds ‘angles’ which are non-sticky ( static ) and when the angles are completed the uses its own body as a measurement vehicle to construct the ‘sticky’ part of the web. The spider can now walk along the non-sticky part as it chooses, while the ‘spiral’ sticky section catches prey. So, in essence, the angles supports the goal, the sticky spiral.

So that spider is simply bending the vertical dimension.

Spiders, Spirals, and a Hawk…somehow they all fit, and just in time for Halloween, but you will have to wait for the movie. :laughing:

396

I thought the rattleback was a great thought pump.
It helped me TRY to figure out how to communicate stuff about ‘good’ vs ‘bad’ wobble; might show up in a post someday, but sorting through semantics and meaning is slippery business, kind of like accidentally stumbling barefoot half way between nowhere onto a rainy cow path full of toads and cowpies on a moonless night.

397

Some random thoughts running through my head while driving and drinking coffee…

RR wrote

and

Or to quote Armory Lovins of the Aspen Institute, always ask “what is it FOR ?” My speculation is that it is for strength. In his golf book The Bertholy Method, Bertholy used the example of the strength of a firecracker tube( another paper spiral) that contains the explosion until a powerful release occurs. He suggested a good swing might also do this. He also likened that containment to that of a karate blow.

A while back in this thread, BOM noted the spiral DNA:
DNA Hogan.jpg
and

DNA.jpg
DNA.jpg404×639 77.6 KB

Thomas Jefferson used the a serpentine wall at the quadrangle if the University of Virginia. It is flattened spiral giving a sine wave shape, improves lateral strength, and thus economizes bricks.
serpentine wall.jpg

398

Good one Eagle’s nest.

That serpentine wall is interesting for sure with the economic aspect to it, and how closely the economy of the design has a relationship with forces. So we have an economic principle and a universal design principle, or ever present dynamic, colliding on a golf course. Is that what it comes down to. :laughing: Where is that collider, and do we use cheap atoms to foster planned obsolescence.

But with the wall, I see the concave and convex as really saying that for every inward/away there is an outward/toward along one continuum which kind of goes with Hogan’s premise of one continuous thrust. I guess I don’t really see the ‘plane’ as shown in 5Lessons as segment of transparent board material with a hole cut out. I see it more as backstop against expansionist forces, and the hands are always in a fight against going toward the expansion board. At address, the only thing touching that board is the clubhead at some point, and the top of the shoulders. Everything else, especially the hands, are below as opposed to Moe who would keep everything higher. Anyhoo…enough about that.

Found this after your post triggered some thoughts. The sine is a two dimensional representation of a 3d spiral? Seems to make sense, but I wouldn’t bet my first born on it. What I would bet on however is that from whatever ‘top’ one arrives at, at the top, the hands from that location to hand location at low point would be a segment of an arc, or spiral, but that would take some massive computer skills which little rats don’t have.

I can see both the sine, and spiral here: :slight_smile:
3dsine.jpg

399

…something else about the serpentine wall and the convex/concave windings that I had not paid attention to until today.

It occurred to me that ‘the wall’ fits within a sequence that seems to hold true for a number of different circumstances, and maybe even universally- alternating attributes.

For example, if we choose any discrete number on a number line that number, if an even number, will have an odd number on each side of it. 8 will have 7 to ‘its left’ and 9 to ‘its right’. That sequence is then odd, even, odd. Choose any point on that line as a reference point, whether it be odd or even, and the same alternating sequence holds true for whole numbers- the point of reference will be framed by the opposite quality on each side of it regardless of starting point for the most part.

For numbers: odd, even, odd, even, odd, even, etc……
For forces: expansion, contraction, expansion, contraction, expansion….
For the wall: concave, convex, concave, convex, concave, convex….
For many things: nothing, something, nothing, something, nothing….

Address: expansion-convex
Top: contraction-concave
Impact: expansion-convex
Follow thru: contraction-concave
Settle:

Reversing the impact condition, we have.

expansion, contraction, contraction, expansion…then settle.

So no matter where you are on the wall, equal and symmetrical opposites await on each side of you.

That’s it for now as I am going to expand my butt off this chair, contract my hand around an oatmeal cookie, expand my jaw, contract my teeth, and hope that expansion and contraction peristalsis works, and if it doesn’t, some nice hot coffee will help. :laughing:

400

A Pelvic Lever

I believe the lead hip socket to C7 impact pivot axis provides a pelvic lever, extending from the lead hip socket to the trailing hip socket. Into and beyond impact, this pelvic lever carries the lower spine around the stabilized lead hip socket fulcrum. By mainly carrying, instead of twisting, the lower spine, this pelvic lever may produce less twisting pressure on the lower spine and sacroiliac region than my old spine pivot. The old spine pivot wobbled unsteadily between both rocking hips twisting the pelvis and lower spine around its axis. Stronger bodies might handle that old spine pivot axis without breaking down; but mine could not, and I want to reduce or avoid problems the spine centric axis caused through impact.

Because the pre-impact positioning of the lead hip socket takes little time, exertions leading toward rotation of the pelvic lever around the lead hip socket must begin soon enough to overcome at least some inertial resistance from the torso mass. Overcoming this inertia begins automatically during transition, assisted by gravity. With contributions of feet, legs, hip joint and possibly other muscles, the pelvic lever movement may be felt mostly around the lead hip socket when the hip socket assertively accelerates around itself before, through, and beyond impact. The pelvic lever carries a large majority of body mass from the trailing side around and under the stable tilted pivot axis. The much smaller portion of torso mass, on the lead side of the rotating axis, is displaced by the accelerating movement of the larger trailing mass. Some might describe this ‘pivoting heavier trail side chasing the lighter lead side’ as good wobble, sort of a trebuchet effect. I believe both the more stabilized lead hip socket to C7 tilted pivot axis and the pelvic lever together help reduce ‘bad’ wobble through impact, and assist distance, consistency, and accuracy.

This exploration does not aim to describe the ABS swing specifically nor an entire swing of any kind. My recent posts mainly explore a stabilized lead hip socket to C7 tilted pivot axis for impact that I believe I see in Ben Hogan and other fine golfers.