The Moe thread

Essential Reading
21

Paulsygolf / lagpressure

On the range I imagined for a while to be Moe Norman and I liked the results. I wondered if Moe did use the same setup for driver, irons, short approach shots and even for putting.

I noticed something which I found particular interesting. At the top I felt a natural inclination for the lower body and trail knee to spring into the action.

The lead arm stretched out from the shoulder joint and rather on plane with the shaft makes it easier to go full out and still find the ball consistently.

Is there a reason that one does not see golf pros adapting a Moe Norman style of golf swing. Is it perhaps that the looks of the swing inhibits them to give it a try ? :blush:

22

I have thought about Moe’s setup for a while. He puts his hands in a TGM’s impact fix position but a good foot away from the ball. I think that is very smart of Moe to factor in the forward lean (or slide) during the downswing. We here at ABS kinda discourage the slide move but even with all the effort there is always some forward move. You can either leave the hands there at impact fix or bring them near the ball by flexing the left wrist. Thats how Hogan and most every one is set up. So again the TGM impact fix right behind the ball is an unnatural position IMHO.

23

I suspect that the reason most pros don’t use Moe’s methodology is that when they try it … it doesn’t work too well for them.
I think you have to really understand it from top to bottom. I’m not so sure I do either, so I choose at this point not to make it my main method of instruction nor for my own swing. Moe being left handed may also be a factor.

However… from a swinger’s perspective, I like the idea of working off a shoulder plane approach because of the natural desire for the clubshaft at left arm to want that straight inline position at lowpoint. It makes sense, and I can’t say I ever saw Moe really miss hit a shot in an obvious way.

Hitters and swingers can appear to be carbon copies up until impact with the naked eye. There are a lot of principles that Moe utilized that can be completely interchangeable and many of these I have embraced.

But as much as I learned from Moe, I can’t say I completely understand his methods… because to do so… your swing would need to be very much along the lines of what Moe did, and also the ball striking results as well would need to be at a very high level…

I suspect I could guess pretty well what Moe did, and how he did it… but until I had direct and personal knowledge, and
either myself or a human guinea pig mastered it to a very proficient level… it’s still holds some unanswered questions.
I would estimate you could get close in 3 to 5 years with proper instruction, but that is the key… and the problem… can you find proper instruction for Moe’s action?

I haven’t seen it …

24

Lag,

Perhaps an over simplification but it might be argued that you and Moe thought control going in opposite directions.

You want action to take place close to the core whereas Moe seems to have developed a swing rather doing the opposite.

25

I think people are trying to copy the wrong era Moe swing… this is just beyond words. I made up a whole sequence that I’ll post later… I’m not a huge fan of the Moe swing as it’s known, but this one is up there with the best I’ve ever seen… Why did he change it? Lag, did he talk to you about the transformation? His known swing doesn’t seem like a refinement of this, this is different. His plane concept seems to have really limited his movement over the years… thanks for this link, btw…
Moe Madness.jpg

26

If you watch the video clip of that swing, his footwork is amazing… in that his horizontal ground pressures are top shelf stuff.
I agree, it morphed into something not as good, and while I captured him in the late 80’s long before Moe was on the radar, it was still way past his prime years.

His swing was a little more conventional looking earlier, in all the right ways of course. He gained weight later, and swung a bit more flat footed than what we see here.

27

Reminds me of this bookmark I saved before even hearing of ABS (Moe was, as usual, one of first few names to come up while searching swing info as a beginner). I remember at time seeing what I thought was unique. He appears to ROLL his feet on its side during DS and right heel comes up after impact, where as just about every PGA pro, Hogan, etc lifts their right heel off ground and uses ball of foot during DS.

Is this the “amazing” you are talking about lag:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc0nqjO1WXQ

28

That classical guitar My Way is just pure gold… fantastic. Thanks for that…

His footwork is why I posted that sequence too, I’ve never seen anything like it. He presses into the ground so well and then just rips. It speaks to that pivot power you talk about with him- it’s quite difficult to see if you don’t know it’s there, but looking at this video you know that no matter what he did or what it may have ended up looking like, he was never going to kill that force. It’s one thing getting that left foot all Charlie Chaplin at the end of the swing, but to get it there just post impact is ridiculous. Who knows what kind of shoes he was wearing or what the ground was like, but even so, there’s just so much force there. And then the right foot is still in on itself too, he comes in off the heel more than anyone I’ve ever seen, but in a powerful way. I remember Pauly(?) talking about his abnormally formed left shoulder area when he took his shirt off, and how it dwarfed his right side- you can see how that would’ve played out in this swing here.
It would interesting to find out which swing he won most of his tournaments with. Anyone got any ideas?

29

I was on the course the other day, all alone. So decided to try my best “Moe” impression. Straight, extended arms, wide stance and fairly far from ball. Glanced at target, Lined up the 7i to ball, purposely tried to keep it all on single-plane and… WHIFF. I completely missed the ball! Not over the top of the ball but whole clubhead was a whole clubhead width inside. So laughed, stepped a bit closer so arms were as far out and made contact. It was straight but much shorter than my normal good contact 7i.

No thanks…

I honestly think, imho, that Moe may have been best ball-striker of all time BUT lets not owe it 100% all to his technique and a mold for others to use. He was a self professed ball beater and, from what I can tell, some sort of savant. Probably beat more balls in his life than any 2 PGA pro’s put together and had the hands/calluses to show it. With no preconceived ideas/concepts or teachings of a golf swing, he tinkered tons with his swing and found what worked for him and then mastered that.

30

Budman: for a +30 you sure do seem to have the mysteries solved…even after one attempt all alone on the course. :astonished:

31

The lone swing attempt from a 30+ hcp was more just what I thought was humorous to me rather than my attempt to prove anything. Don’t know what lead you to believe I was speaking authoritively because of it. My handicap has nothing to do with me having an opinion at an open forum.

Besides no mystery solved. Just a confirmation of what no one ever seems to conclude because of sheer blind following of some internet legend obsessed homeless savant with endless time to beat range balls perfected an unorthodox swing that comfortably fit and worked with his overweight body. I put him up there past the other Internet legend that again never won ANYTHING on professional tour but is pitched as some perfect “mechanically correct” swing because he once hit a very long drive in Nevada heat with a 25mph tail wind… Mike Austin.

This is what brought me to ABS in first place, I enjoy reading thoughts and insights from actual players who WERE on tour and worked out what works under pressure (Lag/twomaster).

32

Oh please, let’s not start bashing players who happened to be ball-beaters and try to chalk it up to “that’s the only way they got to where they were cause they had such out-of-whack swings”. Trevino was a self-professed ball-beater and fits the ABS mold as good as anyone, in fact he’s practically the poster-child.

To me “ball-beating” at the alleged level of these guys is simply a form of committment that few posess. I’m guessing Moe and Lee could both stand on the first tee of any tournament they played in totally confident that they’d already out-worked 98% of the field they were going up against. And how good must THAT feel?!

I think it’s unlikely that they developed motions that were “right for them” yet were de-void of any biomechanical or physical correctness (or brilliance).

robbo

33

Hitting balls is one of those interesting things… some players find their swing through pounding endless golf balls… others never find it. There is something else going on in the equation.

I used to spend a lot of time pounding balls, especially on the range with Ben Doyle. I worked things out that way… but I also found that I had to hit a lot of balls to keep the timing of a swinger’s release. VJ says he has to hit balls or he feels he can loose his swing quickly.

Some people flat out love hitting range balls. Therapy for some, meditative for others…

Over time, I found I could get all my biomechanical conditioning done with just swing drills, and impact bag work, or just taking divots which is still a favorite pastime of mine… especially in long tall grass.

Ultimately you need to take it all to the golf course, and I think playing just has so much to offer. Learning all the sidehill lie combinations, wind, weather, shaping shots to real targets, and of course all the feel shots, and learning how to put a round together.

I don’t think there is a magic formula. Everyone will be different… I think drilling can save you a lot of time and money on range balls, but you do need to hit some to get real golf ball feedback, and of course, you need to get out and play.

When I first turned pro and could actually dedicate all my time to golf, and not have to worry about school or a job,
it was not uncommon for me to hit 500 golf balls in a day, putt and chip for 2 hours, and play 36 holes.

However, I think if you have great technique, you don’t have to do that. You can cover up a lot of issues by hitting two milk crates of golf balls a day.

1 Like
34

Perhaps I thought using the term “savant” with collateral use of “no preconceived ideas” within the same context is walking down a slippery slope while discussing a great ball striker like Moe Norman. Let’s leave it at that.

I think you will find some great stuff @ ABS.

Would have gotten back sooner but went to a party last night and did my first rap dance ever…wasn’t pretty but sure a lot of fun. Cool beat: Low- by Flo Rida…the song won’t leave my head…I’m doomed! A rapping rat :laughing: RR

35

Stumbled on this today and thought Id share the link.

Its fantastic and Ive watched it many times. Theres 3 parts…

http://www.youtube.com/user/super2suite#p/u/8/kEDzhLgYeQA

36

Excellent link. Thanks!

Some great tidbits in there if you listen closely.

Saying how he wants his club to “sing” after impact reminded me of what Lag preaches about maximum acceleration after impact (but the scientists say is impossible)

He also pokes fun of Hogan in Part 2 around 2m mark; “Here’s Hogan Golf…”… :laughing:

Was Moe able to hit a 2i or 1i good? If so how far? Just doesn’t seem he could generate enough club speed to be good at hitting those irons well.

37

Your looking at Moe right before he died… he was only a shadow here of what I first saw in 87… and what I saw was just a shadow of what he was in the 60’s I would imagine.

Moe could flush 1 irons just fine… no problem at all. I watched him do it with ease… and drivers off the ground no problem.

Moe absolutely flushed it.

38

spinetilt.jpg
spinetilt.jpg700×282 71.9 KB

Moe was smart to set up with spine tilt to simplify the golf swing. Straight right leg, and he just simply turned back, cocked the wrists, rotated his forearms pulling it back inside, then initiated with his legs at transition right back to a fully extended impact… pulling it all the way through then up with his torso and deltoids.

Post impact, his torso straightened up as it should to allow further travel of the left shoulder, and it saved his back also.
There is nothing wrong with this golf swing.

39

Lot of stuff for me to consider here . . . . may be time to shift the paradigm.

40

Could you expand on this a bit with regards to the spine? I don’t know what Mac is teaching now seems to change and I ain’t in no “circles” so top secret doo doo . . . anyway you hear the Mac crowd and others talking about “staying in the tilts” or “maintaining your torso’s inclination to the ground” . . . what are your thoughts on that and the spine movements in general? Interested to know what you think about the stuff with regards to “keep your butt on the wall and head on the wall”?

Looks like somebody didn’t know not to match their tigers and zebras . . . glen plaid and big stripes . . . only Moe could get away with rocking that combo.