Thanks Lag. I’ll point out in Dans defense however he is definately not S&T. He promotes this set-up to allow the pivot to load into the inside of the right heel, and teaches a ‘rotorary’ style swing eg Hunter Mahan. He’s a student of Slicefixer I believe
Alot of teaching pro’s seem to be moving away from pivot stall - dump - flip. Can only be a good thing
Anyway back to topic, Subscribed to Greg’s Youtube channel last night, looks the real deal
Thanks Lag for the clarification!!
I cant believe It has just dawned on me to have spine tilt at address. How in the world can you go from a normal setup and then radically change your spine during your swing so that you can come in from the 4:30! You have got to have a slower swing or SPECIAL GOLF POWERS in order to radically shift your spine in a split second! I think this is why so many people including myself have “goat humped” for so many years! 
It is crazy that I have ALWAYS setup with a standard address position due to my comfort level and faulty teaching. I guess I should not be to hard on myself cause even Lag said that “I still bang myself on the head that I didn’t figure this out 20 years ago.”
It is now clear to me that a standard address position in a hitters protocol will induce golf insanity leading to paralysis! 
I wasn’t referring to Dan as being S and T. Just in a general way, as I still get a lot of students who have suffered from working with that stuff in the past.
Dan’s idea of tucking in the right knee is nothing new as a lot of players in the past have used a right knee kick to act as a forward press to start the swing… Gary Player quickly comes to mind. But I disagree that kicking the right knee in is going to preserve the integrity of the spine on the backswing, because while it is a nice theory when only looking at a stagnant address position, most great strikers straighten the right leg on the backswing to some degree, so when you straighten the leg that raises the right hip up slightly and this would negate the idea of pre setting with a lower right hip to keep the spine straight.
Dan apparently is locked into the idea that the hips and shoulders need to be square at address. It does still remain popular opinion, but since this is “The Moe Thread”, Moe for one was not a believer in this… and neither am I. So if the idea that Dan presents is critical to keep the spine and shoulder blade at right angles… then there can’t be any straightening of of the right leg on the backswing. Not sure what the advantage of that would be, because restricting the range of motion of the hip rotation on the backswing is not something you see many great strikers do. Hogan didn’t, Snead didn’t, Player didn’t, Trevino didn’t, DeVicenzo etc…
So if one starts with the right hip low… then straightens the right leg… the hip raises, then would lower back down at transition as the right knee needs to flex into the downswing… so this just creates an unnecessary move in my opinion. I like the swing to be as simple as possible.
It’s not that what he is suggesting is wrong… because it does hint at a proper downswing feeling… but could discourage a proper right hip backswing loading for some in my opinion. I say this because I look at a lot of golf swings with faulty restricted backswing rotation.
The bottom line is… if you can create a full shoulder rotation on the backswing and get the spine tilted to allow a clear path for the arms to slot through transition and into the downswing, that is all you need to do. However, I have yet to see a particular set up or backswing path that guarantees this will happen automatically without proper downswing and post impact protocols being in place first.
Thanks for the insights lag much appreciated. I like the idea too of distilling the swing down to the fewest movements. Less to go wrong. Provided you’re properly anchored with the right foot, a straight right leg at set up is most beneficial I would think 
Lag said:
Doesn’t straightening the right leg on the backswing, or pre-setting as Moe and Lag do, move the hip slightly back… away from the target line at the top of the swing…which is desirable/preferable to what many do…which is move the right hip slightly towards the target line on he backswing, and even more on the forward swing.
Can having the right knee straighten, and thus move the right hip farther away from the target line at the top in fact help preserve the spine angle, or even make it more acute as some do( Moe, Trevino, Hogan)…and therefore be an antidote, if only partial, to the tendency to lose the angle/stand up, or goat hump at impact?
I have a interesting video about Moe´s hipmotion from behind him…
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSKnYE5JfmU[/youtube]
Quite interesting that I feel the same - from face on view I have a lot of lateral motion,
but from behind me it is only rotation. I am no expert in Moe but accidentally I use somehow
the same hipmotion without his setup.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaBLVlvwyto[/youtube]
Lot´s of hipslant in the back and target turn - in TGM they call this
´STANDARD HIPMOTION` - today they teach a level hipmotion…
Chris
Chris.
Not according to Moe Norman
“The golf swing means nothing, hit your positions.”
Lots of pretty swings that don’t hit the ball solid.
Thanks
Greg Lavern
I like this clinic - no idea what year - no sound…
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyWs6dnqL5U[/youtube]
Nice loading action…
Chris
Moe Norman and Ben Hogan had repeating golf swings from the understanding and concentration each had to hit their positions. thanks Greg Lavern
In this video Moe mentions a drill he would do holding a post-impact position with a club weighing 6 pounds! Kind of like the impact bag drills, same intent…to train the muscles.
Slight you are the man, thanks for posting. Remember reading about it earlier in the thread but forgot. You gave me much to research, love the video of Moe showing how to work the club from such a behind postition to square. What he shows here is the reason Hogans post impact is beautiful.
This was not taught to me but Two knows I do it, and would be interesting to hear what Lag thinks. I train module 3 with weights, progressively. First 4 weeks, 8-12 reps to failure. Second 4 weeks, 5-8 reps to failure. Third 4 weeks, 2-4 reps to failure. With this I realized I need more grip strength to accelerate this. Some friends play college football and this is a must. They are strong but must be able to grip and hold onto the amount of weight they are moving, standard football training. The excercise they use is a sledgehammer held vertical, horizontal left and right, and pointing away to failure. There are variations but you must have this strength to combat centrifugal force which is termed fictitous by physics, but this is because they put the acutual force as the pull inward to keep the clubhead from flying away from the body. This is what Lag means by the guns to handle it at the bottom and post impact.
When you talk about his left side pull going through being unmatched, are you talking about the range of motion of his torso from impact through p4 and to his finish? And the speed that he rotated post impact?
Any news on the second book?
Yes, the range of motion, but also the pulling up of his left arm. Trevino did something similar at times. Moe went up and up while Lee went Up then over and down.
Moe’s method has not been taught in popular golf circles, but it should. There was some great logic and common sense in what he did. Moe was the best striker I ever saw with my own eyes.
As far as Greg’s book, I haven’t heard from him in a while… so maybe that means he’s been busy putting on the final touches. I sure hope so!
Moe used to tell me the most difficult part of the swing was the initial takeaway. So he just eliminated that awkward move by setting the club a bit back toward the 4:30 line. He’d sweep the club along the ground as a drill for 42 inches then start the backswing load. Brilliant stuff. He always thought outside of convention and hit the ball much better than the conventional guys.
Moe would tell me his wide stance was like “The Great Pyramids of Egypt, they’re still standing”
It’s incredible how accurate he was with that statement. Everything was thought through with Moe.
On a side note, Greg Lavern’s new book on Moe should be out this summer. I spoke with him recently to check on the progress…really looking forward to it.
Oh boy, the Egyptians, and an enlightened Moe- he knew!
Ra……knew
Ra (nge) Ra (t)……knows
The sun always sets while it rises, because the secret in the dirt is that the sun comes out of the dirt.
Or….
Recession upward to the apex is where the apex begins.
Or…
Well, the rest is between me and the Pharaoh.
Moe on the 4:30 line
Level shoulder rotation with shaft steepening moving into PV5.
I watched that video of him. I’m always amazed at how short his armswing was on his backswing. Did he ever talk about that? I know he wasn’t real long but where do you think his power came from with such a short swing?
