I’ve seen Perry hit the ball live, as late as last year. I remember thinking off the tee 'well, he doesn’t hit that big draw as they say he does…these PGA Tour guys really hit it almost straight.
Then I saw him hit a 4-iron from a downhill lie with a noticeable draw with it and thought ‘oh, okay…there’s the draw.’
Then I saw him him a big bender 9-iron and that caught my attention. Honestly, I kinda thought less of his ballstriking to hit that big of a draw with a short iron. Then he kept hitting his driver long and relatively straight.
Trackman says that he’s the golfer with the path the furthest amount to the right of +6* and Colin Montgomerie has the path furthest left of -6* of all of the golfers they have measured on Tour.
This video, to me, shows a big time path out to the right. Look at the right arm exit in the follow thru. Clubface flops over…typical for a swing out to right field golfer.
Colin Montgomerie is often accused of being over the top… I suppose that verifies it with a 6* out to in angle… yeesh. But he is still regarded as one of the best middle iron hitters to play the game.
Monty was/is spooky straight off the tee, but his angle of attack does nothing for his hang time.
TM, if ABS is the way to go then Trackman will verify it! Ball flight is a great guide, but things like hitting it a dimple or two off center can through the peepers off a bit.
I have struggled with the under plane hooks for a long time. Understanding the effect that attack angle has on my path has been a huge piece of the puzzle for me. Also, I do not have to contort myself (struggled to make this work)in order to swing left, I simply reorient my horizontal plane line left enough to adjust for the down. It appears as though Kenny Perry is doing just that in the pic TM posted.
Check out Manzella’s offering. Best free video out there.
I have the '92 US Open on video. IIRC, they talk to Monty and he talks about how his fellow PGA Tour pros are amazed at how low he hits it and can still cut it. Trackman explains how.
As far as the other thread with Lag on the launch monitor, I think he brings up good points about the ‘good numbers’ vs. good swings. But, that has to do with the tradeoff of distance vs. accuracy and precision. Furthermore, it has more to do with the attack angle and the actual equipment.
Much like it’s been stated here already…hit up on the driver…if you hit it well…you will hit it further than if you hit it well but hit down on the driver.
But with the irons, we hit down with them. There is no alternative. You can’t hit up with an iron unless you tee it up high. And there’s no real advantage to that.
And with the drivers…much more wide ranging technology to get the ball very HIGH up in the air, low spin and get more carry and more roll. It’s also more difficult to control the higher you hit it with the driver, although for me…if I’m hitting it straight and optimizing distance, then it’s up to me to aim the thing correctly.
So as far as Trackman with irons goes…if you hit it well, regardless of what swing method/system/philosophy/theory/etc, you will post up good numbers on Trackman. You won’t be able to help yourself.
With the driver, the fitter always wants to optimize distance. I think John Senden, a very good driver of the ball, ‘only’ has 9.5* of vertical launch. Most fitters would plead with him to raise his launch, but with his results he really doesn’t need to.
R3J
I am still stuck on how the attack angle makes a difference to the ball flight the way it does. Is it related to the lie angle of the club assuming you get straight path when the face is square and the attack angle as well as horizontal plane angle are zero. What happens when you bend the club 5 degrees flat? IMO the same attack angle would be more down for the flat club and requiring it to be swung more left.???
I wish I had diagram making capabilities. But…with the irons, we hit the ball first THEN take a divot. In other words, we hit the ball first and after we hit the ball, are clubhead continues to travel downward to the low point (aka deepest part of the divot).
Now, when we hit the ball first and then take a divot…the clubhead MUST hit the ball…THEN…go downwards, outwards and forward to the low point. Homer Kelley talks about it in TGM and he encourages golfers to actively go ‘down, out and forward.’ That may be confusing you because you don’t ‘actively’ have to go down, out and forward towards the low point. The geometry of the circle forces you to do that anyway.
So remember, geometry of the circle means that once you hit the ball with an iron, the clubhead will continue to travel down, out and forward to the low point. Once the club reaches the low point, it will now travel up, in and forward.
Now, let’s say you have a 6-iron. You take one swing with a -2* attack angle. You take another swing with a -8* attack angle. Everything else in your swing is the same, just the attack angle has changed and the path has NOW changed.
Why?
Because with the shallower attack angle (-2*) that means the low point is closer to the ball. With the steeper attack angle (-8*) the low point is further forward and therefore further away from the ball.
So with the steeper attack angle (-8*) which means the distance betwen the ball and the low point is greater, that means the club has to travel MORE downward and MORE outward and MORE forward to the low point after the ball is struck. And that MORE OUTWARD part means that the path goes more inside-to-out. And that more of an inside-to-out path means the ball is more likely to hook (depends on what the clubface is doing at impact). Ever hit a low punch shot under some trees? Usually it has a little hook spin to it. Why? Because we move the ball back in our stance which increases the distance between the ball and the low point. That increases the attack angle and means the clubhead has to travel more outward to get from the ball tot he low point. So it creates more of an inside-to-out path.
The other day I was playing in 30-35 mph winds and I tried to hit my first knockdown shot of the day and I over-hooked it. I had to remind myself to open up my stance on those shots because I had to direct the swing more to the left so I could counter my path going more inside-to-out because I’ve increased the attack angle with that knockdown shot. After that, I started hitting the knockdown’s straight.
I must admit that I’m coming around to TM and the D=plane. I think I have a reasonable understanding of “it” and can see some real benefit if you can keep it simple.
No doubt the face angle at impact is pretty important. I just wonder how many golfers can really discern a degree or two difference in face relative to path? It’s critical yet we may be asking too much for most humans. So many golfers set up with clubfaces pointing all over the place. I wonder how well the average golfer can use TM/D-Plane if they can’t control and/or understand where the face is relative to path?
Does it have anything to do with the lie angle and heel/toe up condition of the club (heel up =open face; toe up = closed face) and
Why do we assume that the club has to change direction fron in to out to out to in after low point. It cetainly does not hapen when you really hit one way behind the ball.
Clubface is crucial. If you looked at Trackman #'s across the board for different players of different handicaps, you’d see the lower the handicap, the better the dispersion in clubface angle at impact. The paths are pretty consistent. If you come in with a +2* path (inside-to-out) on one shot, you’re likely to have that same type of path the next 20 shots. Where low handicappers tend to struggle is that they get their path too far inside-to-out. Something like +5* or more. Tiger was struggling with this just recently according to Sean Foley as they measured his path at +10* at Dubai. Too far inside-to-out or outside-to-in, not only does it effect the curvature, but the compression as well. Much like tennis, tough to really compress the ball with a top spin serve instead of your first serve. The path of the racket to the ball is different.
1* differences in face…can’t really tell. Partly because Trackman does have a margin for error of I think 0.7*. But 2-3* and you’ll see the difference in ball flight. It really doesn’t take much. That’s why swinging out to the right is often risky. Clubface turns over and horizontal hinges, but if you turn to early, you close the face. Too late, face is open.
Absolutely. Trackman says that from 170 yards, if you miss the sweetspot by 1 dimple, and the path and face are 0* and 0*, the ball will fly off line by 2 yards. We simply cannot feel if we miss the sweetspot by 1 dimple. And if the face is open or closed at impact, that absolutely affects the initial direction.
Clubface at impact = approximately 75% responsible for the initial direction of the ball flight. So a closed face means the ball will go more left, open face means ball goes more to the right (provided your are right handed).
There’s no assumption…that is exactly what happens. Once you hit the low point, the clubhead HAS to go up, in and forward. It’s because we swing on an inclined plane. This picture may help you better visualize.
What happens with lower handicap players that want to get better is that the club has to go inward and upward, but the clubSHAFT exits very upright. The clubHEAD still goes, up, inward and forward because it has to. But the shaft may be doing something else. In that type of swing, it would be like the golfer taking the plane board and shifting it to the right of the target. That’s why Lag’s ‘swinging left’ works. It’s ‘staying on plane’ and it gets the golfer to swing on an inclined plane board that would be on target. That gets the path close to 0* to the target which will provide the best opportunity to maximize compression.
If everything is line up at the target, you will get the same face and path.
What changes is what they call the ‘Vertical swing plane’ (I think TM still calls it this). This is the measurement of the downswing plane.
So, with the Iron Byron at a 90* angle. the VSP is 90*. And because of that, in order to get the path at 0*, the bottom arc also has to be at 0* because of the 90* angle.
IIRC, if the Iron Byron is set up at 60*, then with the irons, the bottom arc needs to be 1/2 of the attack angle in order to square up the path. So if I have a 7-iron with a -4* attack angle and a 60* Vertical swing plane. The bottom arc would have to be at -2* (left of the target) in order to get the path at 0* (square to the target). If it’s flatter than 60*, the more the bottom arc has to go left in order to square up the path (ala Hogan). The more upright than 60*, the left left it has to be to square up the path.
Obviously, nobody swings at a 0* or 90* Vertical Swing Plane…
Because of the way the human body is designed… it loves to jiggle that ring around… causing OTT and or other abnormalities.
My point is that the flatter the lie angle, the more variations in plane affect trajectory more than initial flight directional path.
I mean if I hit a ball off my knees, there is no way I pull the ball hard left… but if I am really upright, I can get OTT so much easier.
I just seems to me that TM would give different readings between zero and 90 degrees. I would seem like it would have to spin the ball differently.
The lower the handle, typically the clubface’s rate of closure slows down. So if you’re flatter and you’re hitting it flush, the handle has to get lower and you won’t turn that face over as quickly. If you have a high rate of closure and the face closes too quickly, the ball is going left.
While the clubface angle at impact is responsible for about 75% of the initial ball flight, it really has a big influence on the curvature.
Let’s say I take a swing with a face at 0* (to the target) and a path 0* to the target. That would produce a straight shot at the target. But if I take another swing with the face point -4* left of the target this time…and the path still at 0* to the target, the ball will start left and draw/hook on it…even though your path was exactly the same.
Point being, if I swing from my knees and I don’t have the lie angle on my clubs correct, the face is likely to point left at impact and I will go left.
One of the reasons why clubfitting can be such a mess is that a lot of amateurs come in with too high of a handle at impact and thus the heel is up off the ground and they hit a shot on the toe. Then the clubfitter says ‘you’re hitting it off the toe, you need more upright clubs.’
But, that doesn’t solve the problem at all. It just reinforces to the golfer that the high handle is okay for now. So now the golfer just keeps coming in with a high handle at impact and usually it just gets worse. Next thing you know they are using extra long shafts and +5* upright lie angles.
I am still shocked at how even the guys on tour have the toe of their drivers up in the air. That somehow they are buying into
this being correct.
It’s not correct.
If there is any loft on the club at all, and the toe is up… the ball is going left. So what they are doing is opening up the clubface some at impact to compensate, and this of course adds loft so they are taking loft off the driver as another compensation. It’s very silly really.
I marvel at this as well Lag. Sort of like Aoki putting back in the day… yet no one ever mentions how bizarre it looks and/or funtions. Yea… it’s on a tee… so what? Good thing it is cause these cats couldn’t make contact otherwise. Surely “hitting up” doesn’t require such an improper fitting club?
If the driver works so well doing that, why don’t we set up with our 6-iron with the toe a half inch in the air too? Oh… that’s right… most golfers do.
I think there are some big positives to hitting up on the ball. But, that is with TODAY’S modern titanium driver. I own a really nice Cleveland Classic persimmon driver. As far as persimmon goes, it’s about as good as it gets for me.
I can hit up on a persimmon. But the risk of hitting a sky ball is too great. Plus, what I find with persimmon is that when I do make good contact and hit up on the ball, it’s not easy to keep it straight. I can still find the fairway, but the curvature is noticeably increased versus hitting one on the screws with my normal swing and having it go almost dead straight.
But with modern titanium…sky ball if almost out of the question and it’s not that hard to hit one dead straight if you hit up on it. The only problem I have when I try to hit up on it is making good contact consistently.
PGA Tour average now is -1.3* with the driver. So guys are still hitting down somewhat. Last I checked, which was almost a year ago, I was at 0*. If I try and hit up on one and I do hit it well, I can easily gain 40 yards. Get a hole that is 470 yard-4 and is wide open, those 40 yards can be useful. You can also hit up on the ball, take a couple of mph off your swing speed and focus more on alignments and motion and still hit it further even though you lost a few mph on your swing speed. Lastly, Trackman says that with the driver, the more you hit down, the lower your smash factor will get. That just tells me with the modern titanium…you probably don’t want to hit more than -2* down on it.
That’s what Tiger was doing under Haney…hitting about -3* down. That’s why he lost distance. I also believe that’s why he lost accuracy because the CoG on the club is up high on the face and I think it’s not meant for hitting that far down. Persimmon and titanium…obviously two very different birds.
So many golfers set up with clubfaces pointing all over the place. I wonder how well the average golfer can use TM/D-Plane if they can’t control and/or understand where the face is relative to path?
