The thing that i was specifically focusing on was the movement of the [size=150]right elbow,[/size] not just the right arm in general. Maybe i should have made that clear.
Still, spooky how old RR and I thought Hogan was trying to tell us something different to what he was saying at almost exactly the same time.
[b]Well,
Another great of the game… saving right arm… or actually moving through impact with a frozen right arm…
It’s tricky to do this…
I never understood why Homer’s TGM ignored this as a component concept.
I don’t…[/b]
I am probably looking for proprietary information here, but how does one freeze the right arm? OK…OK…I am asking too much! How about I guess and you shoot me down?
Also, the more bend at the elbow at impact the flatter the entry, right? by the way who wins the most right elbow at impact award…Trevino?
bob, I’m a complete novice so take my comments with a pinch of salt.
For me, saving right arm is achieved by the pivot. The pivot is the master accumulator. Our arms do next to nothing. To make sure our arms don’t take on a life of their own, we can squeeze both our armpits in the downswing so that they don’t get away from us. But more than this, we need to train our pivot so that it is the driving force of our golf swing from P3 to P4. It takes time and it’s not something I could ever hope to do by just beating balls - in every drill that we do here, keeping out the arm movement is a part of it. Some would call it the arm illusion - the arms seem to move but in a good golf swing they move very little. So the main arm movement is the folding of the right arm and the unfolding of the right arm in the transition. From there, if the pivot is strong, the right arm has no reason to straighten.
I’m with you TeddyIrons. As soon as the pivot slows…the right arm will straighten…once the right arm straightens the right wrist will flatten, or if you prefer the left wrist will bend. What constitutes the pivot? HK thought that the movement of the right shoulder was important. The right shoulder was at once part of the power package (zone 2) (arms and club unit) as well as the pivot. (zone 1) A novice golfer will move his shoulder in an OTT manner precipitating the premature release of the right elbow in attempt to get down to the ball…not good. So i was asking if the right shoulder moving down plane (consistent with good pivoting) was a/the manner in which the right elbow action is saved for much later in the downswing, as it straightens at some point. I personally think that the point at which both arms are straight (the followthrough) is essentially a golfers fingerprint. I do not recall ever seeing a picture of a marginal player with a bent right elbow at impact, usually the right arm is coming in straight and therefore too high, or steep. Guys like Hogan, Trevino seemed to have loads of right arm and a (for the lack of a better term) “deeper” followthrough, or point at which both the arms are fully extended at the same time. I am not talking about driving driving the right arm (using the tricpes) out to right field here. I recognize that the saved/frozen arm is common to all good ball strikers. The idea has helped my game a great deal.
Interesting posts, guys. Cool thoughts…
I don’t think you can look at the action of the right arm/side without looking at the left. IMO the term pivot taken as one thing is a sort of blurred view of the action. If the right elbow is to remain bent it has to be resisting something, it’s not just floating through there in a static state. Incidentally, I’m not a big fan of the word frozen in the golf swing. I also believe that the right elbow bent through impact is a similar ‘vapor trail’ as Lag says, to the flat left wrist. It’s a happening if it happens, it’s a reaction not an actual action. You have to ask why it’s bent. It’s a confusing concept because the straightening of the right arm is such an integral part of the downswing that to then all of a sudden try to save some of it’s bend through impact can cause a bit of a short circuit. Essentially if the left side stops accelerating correctly then everything coming behind will simply extend and wrap around led by the weight of the toe. If it stops it acts like a brake in a car- when you slam on, everything in the car flies forward. In the golf swing this means the loss of right arm bend and a rolling clubface, and all sorts of other fun.
My thinking may be different to what the ABS answer would be, but I reckon the left side has to feel quite explosive through impact. When you switch the center of your rotation to the left leg, the angle formed between it and the spine is angled away from the target so the journey of it’s energy has to be upward(one of the genuinely confusing things about striking the golf ball when it’s on the ground) And when viewed from DTL you can see that it’s also directed away to the left of target. You have to be completely committed to those two truths IMO if you are to accelerate your left side correctly. When you activate your rotation by moving into the left leg(the later the better) with the club behind you and low, you create a pressure in the right hand which is then a sort of fulcrum- I’ve talked about that idea before, it’s a weird concept I know. If you look DTL again at this point the only conclusion I can honestly draw is the energy of the right side is acting in a downward and more linear fashion, it’s essentially the only force available that can apply a downward, target oriented force on the club. I think this fits with the pushing with the index finger pad that Hogan talks about in one of those old home movies on youtube. In that mix your body understands that you can push something with more force with a bend in the elbow than if it’s straight. But I reckon the force you apply through your pivot to the left arm and club unit is mirrored instinctively by your right side- so the harder you want to fire the right hand and side, the harder you have to accelerate the left side- I don’t think there can be one without the other. IMO there does have to be some sort of awareness of the different directions the left and right side are moving in, at least while practicing.
And interestingly, from what I have been able to see, both Hogan and Trevino seem to have less saved right elbow as they go down through the bag, which seems to fit with it being a reaction to the speed of the pivot, or left side accelerating.
Bom down through the bag meaning the longer clubs?
This video has always been confusing to me when Hodan demonstrates swinging the club through at waist high…especially because I always thought he had such low hands on his real swing. I know Ijust don’t get what he’s trying to point out…maybe someone can help me.
No Macs, as the clubs get shorter and the speed decreases- For as long as I’ve played golf that phrase has confused me… I never know if down means numbers or shaft lengths 
Eagle,
I would suggest this move in that video has to do in part with what Hogan termed 'the free ride down"— watch where his hands are when he stops that move down before he swishes through with the club
You also get a clearer picture in this version of the more downward journey his hands actually do take in the full downswing after the two pumps he does to show the move… I guess just taken as a literal thing to do, this is a bad move. If you could take from it that you don’t throw the clubhead at the ball first from the top then that would be a good thing. In fact now that I think of it, I think I’ve seen a fuller version where he shows an over the top cast action, and so that would make this the anti that move… I’ll try and look for it…
I tell you what else is just phenomenal about this clip- you can see so clearly how oily and flexible is hips are, just incredible. It’s like they’re moving in some magic liquid…
Yup!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwCYh_2lyHs[/youtube]
Lot of interesting discussion here… good stuff…
I really agree with a lot of what has been said… and I do agree with Hogan’s description also… but I think it is important to
understand that in Hogan’s personal swing, he was very efficient at working the golf club behind his torso, very flat and what would appear to be very laid off as well. These are very good things… but like Bom said, all this is very dependent upon what else is going on…
You can’t really save right arm unless you have something going on to take it’s place. If you don’t have good post impact pivot thrust, and you are using dead hands, then you pretty much have to drive the right arm at it… I think this is what a lot of the TGM guys are working on. Lazy hands, lazy pivot… big right arm drive out to right field.
They can work on that… NOT ME!
Keeping a more frozen right arm through impact IS a result of proper pivot action and a good set of hands. Both the hands and the pivot if worked properly, are orbit pullers… meaning they have the potential to pull the club out of it’s naturally occuring expanding arc… that most of TGM so encourages.
Homer did not get this.
There are three main options for the right arm through impact…
However, for it to effectively tug against CF, it must be powered by the pivot post impact, and the hands actively firing are the first sequence in re routing the golf club around the body.
This is very difficult stuff for many to get, grasp, and really wrap their heads around. But it is very real, and I am completely convinced this is the best way for the human body to engage itself in striking a golf ball. I understand it,
I know what has to be done, I have direct and personal knowledge of what this feels like and how to play golf doing so,
and it is historically supported by many of the finest strikers of the golf ball if not the best.
It’s funny, I was thinking about this stuff this evening in terms of what I’ve learned about TGM over the last year or so, and it really is a significant misunderstanding to see the right arm thrusting out to right field with an inert left arm. I haven’t read the book so I don’t want to bash what I don’t fully understand, but that’s a big miss there. The inert left arm concept in itself is a pretty solid miss. I’m amazed that Homer Kelley got so much right through pure observation and no real practical application, but I can see how this view of a thrusting right arm could be an observational error. It could easily be seen to be doing that. I spent a good bit of time trying it out and I’ve never missed so many greens left in my life! It was funny. I stuck with it enough to see that it wasn’t right. The best I could do was a relatively powerless push of the face towards the target to try and keep it on line. Interestingly, it was a great swing thought for my driving but I think that had more to do with feeling like I could hit it as hard as I liked because it was on a tee which kept my pivot moving.
You end up doing the complete opposite of what you’re supposed to do, in that you end up using the right arm to stop the club from flipping left around your body, as opposed to stopping it from flying out right.
I did learn a lot from digging through some of TGM concepts, but like anything, it has to be seen as a piece of the puzzle and not the final word on everything. It seems that believing all the answers are in there causes clouded thinking in a strange religious sort of way, in that questioning it to someone who believes it is met with fierce defense or a sort of knowing disregard for the questions themselves. It’s a pity because there seems to be a ton of good stuff in there but I find black and white unmovable thinking like that very difficult to be around. Not to mention that I really don’t like putting names on things! I had no chance with it really 
A key step with this stuff here is fully grasping that the acceleration of your pivot actually sends the club out away from you- and the harder the acceleration the harder away from you the club will go(and that you can harness that energy). Getting this clear in your head completely flips your understanding of the impact zone.
I grew up thinking I had to fire the clubhead out at the ball, and I did it quite well, but when you think you have to “get the club to the ball” it makes it quite difficult psychologically to get the club traveling from a deep and low enough path coming in. It all becomes very much dependent on the arms and hands in a conscious coordination sort of way. I was always kind of flat from reading Hogan’s book, but I didn’t know why any of it was going on. I never really had a teacher so I was always trying to figure my own stuff out.
I played a lot of good golf during a time when I used my stomach to swing the club and let my arms fall across my body. Everybody said I was too flat, even a pretty damn good teacher, so I worked the arms back up and lost the plot. I could always find a way back to the ball for the most part, but man does that take up a lot of mental energy! It ends up being such a relief to get it on the fairway and then on the green that sinking putts becomes an after thought.
What hit a lot of stuff home for me recently was when my vintage clubs started arriving. They’re so much flatter than anything I can remember using but when I worked out my posture a little to fit them I could actually see the ball again, and a path to and through it- it was like seeing some old friends again. For all the thoughts that I have about the swing, I don’t think I ever would’ve thought that flatter clubs would’ve been the way to go- but a lot of my thoughts have become clearer since I started using them… I gotta say thanks to Lag for that. Cheers, man…
Thanks. I think I was getting caught up in the wrong part of that free ride.
Bom, I hate to nit-pick, but don’t you think you should refrain from bashing something you haven’t even read?
I’d rather read about what you DO like about Lag’s teaching than what you don’t like about something you only know about 2nd hand. There is nothing wrong with occasionally getting on a soapbox, or expressing your inner (kool-aid-induced) thoughts, but if you can’t back it up with facts or hard evidence (admitting that you never read the book doesn’t bode well for your case), then make it clear that you’re simply expressing your own, personal, highly-biased opinion.
Just my opinion.
I think Bom is saying that although he has not read the book he disagrees with Homer’s description of “hitting” which he is familiar with because it has been explained to him by someone that knows (namely Lag) I have yet to read anything Leadbetter has put out! 
Is this meant to be an ironic joke? If it is it’s pretty spot on with the behaviour I was talking about in my post.
I think you asking me to back it up with “facts” speaks to one of the problems I ran into. As a pretty accomplished player and having received my information from some of the most well versed TGM people in the business (and some very fine people to boot) and having put that information into practice, I think my opinion goes a little beyond blind bashing- performance in action is the only “fact” I’m interested in. It’s unfortunate that, if you’re not joking, you chose to take offense at my observations. It’s your like that tars some of the decent people I’ve encountered through TGM with that dogmatic, angry brush. The kool-aid-induced thoughts is also a little funny because if you had have cared enough about facts yourself, and done a little research before drawing your ill informed conclusions about me, then you would’ve found out that I’m not part of ABS and I don’t do the modules. I just appreciate a venue to openly discuss a game I love with people who aren’t afraid to ask questions, and be asked questions.
If you don’t mind, I wont be responding to any more of your posts, unless of course, you are being ironic, then the joke is on me I suppose. At least you know where I stand now if nothing else. I enjoy discussion and debate, I don’t do religion.
Cheers, Bob… thanks for seeing that! I would add Dart, Loren, and Guru to that list- some of the most decent people I’ve come across and were so open with their thoughts and info that it still amazes me. I’m confident that they would know how much I’ve appreciated their help as I’ve expressed it to them numerous times, and they would know that I’m not bashing them as people. It’s sad that these things are taken to heart in a personal manner, it’s that religious thing I was referring to. If you disagree with a part of it you can’t be involved with any of it. It’s extremely unfortunate and destroys debate and ultimately progress…
Here’s the next installment of my in depth interview with John Lag Pressure Erickson.
http://gothamgolfblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/john-lagpressure-erickson-v.html
Enjoy
Bom
I appreciate your understanding of the forces involved in the golf swing. I believe I have a pretty good understanding of Homer’s work but havent read the book. I have come to believe that the golf swing has so much more to do with strength, resistance and flexibility and not so much with learning a trick or technique. For example its one thing to say enter at a very sahllow angle but doing it takes training and is only incremental. Looking at what rigors you go through ABS and also at Homer’s physique (No judgment intended) it would be down right impossible for him to feel the forces involved in the golf swing. He went on the technique and geometry route.
When reading Lag’s views on the ISG thread that proper application of force will take care of geometry, I was highly skeptical. But after a year of ABS I am totally convinced. If you identify and train a certain group of muscles to power the golf swing through impact with other acting in synergy to provide the firm base (resistance) then that motion will always be on the same plane time and time again. I think a lot of the nitty gritty variations are redundant becasue they are bound to happen.
I live north of 50 so there is ice for 5 mnonths. Recently I have learned an ABS way of walking on ice . It gives you a lot more traction and its tough on the big muscle but fun.