Small World

Okay, so we’re getting a little abstract in the Small World world, but RR mentioned Emily Dickinson in another thread so I figured I’d post this poem here, bear with me :confused:
It’s quite the poem just as it is, and I’m sure spoke about her struggles in life. But seen in a different light, she could very well have been standing by the edge of the range for a day, watching Hogan work through his bag, and capturing what she saw. Their lives don’t overlap, but I still like the idea…

-The Outer – from the Inner

The Outer – from the Inner
Derives its Magnitude –
'Tis Duke, or Dwarf, according
As is the Central Mood –

The fine – unvarying Axis
That regulates the Wheel –
Though Spokes – spin – more conspicuous
And fling a dust – the while.

The Inner – paints the Outer –
The Brush without the Hand –
Its Picture publishes – precise –
As is the inner Brand –

On fine – Arterial Canvas –
A Cheek – perchance a Brow –
The Star’s whole Secret – in the Lake –
Eyes were not meant to know.

Bom
My 8 yr old son is in Karate for the last 3 years; he was just monkeying around in his Haloween Cobra Ninja costume.
Ninja.PNG

Great stuff, Macs… those legs and feet are ready for a golf club. I think that costume might get a few dodgy looks on the first tee, though. Apparently Rickie Fowler has the patent on the one piece jump suit look, you might have to deal with his lawyers…

I bought him a golf club when he was 3, so he can never say he took the game too late or could he.

I’m going to try to get to some of my thoughts on the face rotation stuff. It’s going to take a while, and I won’t get to all of them today, but I’m going to start- this is for my own benefit as much as it is for anyone who cares to read. I’m pretty certain that it’s not going to be agreed with, but neither agreement nor disagreement is the point, the point is discovery. I don’t mind being wrong, and I may get to the end of my analysis and conclude that I am wrong, but I don’t mind that if it makes for better golf.
While I understand the differences between what’s known as hitting and swinging, I have difficulty with the simplicity of the terms and/or the need to place actions into that either/or state. Ironically, I think the less simplified explanation is actually the simpler way to do it, if that makes any sense. RR gave an explanation about what Peter Senior’s clubface was doing through the zone which would be the generally accepted truth of hitting/swing. I think it’s too simplified, and at the end of the day, not actually very simple at all. It takes unnatural motion and contrived effort to not move while moving, and while in theory, having no face rotation through the zone seems like the simple way of doing it, in my opinion, it’s not. The big thing for me is that there is natural rotation(good), and independent rotation(bad). The independent and bad rotation would the stop flip crap commonly known as swinging- it’s terrible and it can’t actually be taught at the end of the day. It would be kind of like trying to teach someone how to throw two 6’s with a pair of dice- you can teach them how to throw the dice, but after that, it’s all up to chance, so you’re not actually teaching them anything in terms of product. The natural rotation is sequential and is in relationship to the entire motion. The knees rotate further than the shins, the stomach rotates further than the thighs, the shoulders rotate further than the hips. In my opinion, this sequencing continues all the way out to the edge of the system, which is the sweet spot on the club. The more I think about this, the more I realize it’s going to take a long time to get through. Oh well, it can be my project for the next while.
The sweet spot is a spot that just so happens to be on a straight face- this is important to understand for a number of reasons. It’s ultimately the thing that rotates and it’s the thing that we’re trying to bring back to and through the ball in order to move it. It’s not inline with the shaft which is one of the things that both complicates the game, but also gives it an added dimension of power. If it was on the shaft, then we would have a much more linear, blunt force to use. Having it outside the shaft allows us, but also requires us to rotate it. Getting the face shut early retards the sweet spot rotation, and the whole action becomes a sort of push sweep at best, with none of that snap that great strikers have. Again, shut and open are, imo, representative terms. Seeing those things is seeing what Lag calls vapour trails in my view. In order to move and accelerate the sweet spot, the face has to rotate. While the face is rotating and appearing to open and close, the spot is moving through space. Holding the face ‘square’ through the zone, is slowing down the sweet spot. When it ‘closes’ through impact in a naturally rotated and sequential manner(good rotation), the sweet spot is actually traveling through space, in a pretty straight line, it’s even lagging behind in a way. It’s kind of like the CF debate- do things move away from the centre or rotation, or do the just want to go straight when they start moving. It’s interesting to be talking about this because this is the very first thing that I talked to Lag about when I found him on ISG. It was concerning Hogan and how by actively trying to close up the face from open, or to rotate through impact, the acceleration required to do that, actually kept it from closing. It’s a weird chicken and egg, counterintuitive happening, but it happens and is at the heart of how things act in rotation. Are you increasing CF by trying to contain it, or ‘cut it left’? I would say you are, and like Hogan, the more you do it, the more the sweet spot wants to travel straight(depending on which side of the CF debate you’re on)
Is this making any sense to anyone? I feel like I’m getting somewhere, but opening one door leads to another room with loads more doors that all want to be opened, so I don’t want to dig in too deep if it’s not making sense. This is kind of subtle stuff, but, for me, breaking it down and trying to understand it, while sometimes sounding complicated, actually makes things simpler. This is my experiment with thinking in public :confused:

well… isn’t this the truth?

Keep it flowing.

Thanks, man… I was just in the middle of another one. I’ve had a lot coffee :mrgreen:

I don’t think photos are definitive because it’s very difficult to know what was going on with the shot, but I obviously do think they’re informative. Here are 3 side by sides of Senior and Furyk. I’m using them as examples because both are considered hitters as far as I can tell, but they both do different things. One of the main things for me is that I like to go after it when I need to. I’m not saying that the Furyk style of impact zone journey isn’t viable, or good, because he’s obviously one of the best players in the world and he controls the ball, but what I am saying is that it’s different to others, or just is what it is. To me, he stays in posture, unloads early off the right leg, and isn’t all that powerful. Senior has a considerable thrust and comes out of his posture which he couples with a pretty hard rip of the arms. He has what I would call active sequential rotation. It’s a freer action that creates more speed. If you take the first photo, Furyk’s club face is pointing at the sky and wide open. If you were looking at it from face on you’d see very little of the back of the club. As opposed to that Senior photo that I paired with the Hurler, where, imo, you can see a lot of the back of it, which is more in line with what I’d expect to see from a face on view of the first photo of Senior here. He’s holding tight and rotating hard, so it’s not independent face flipping, it’s a hard, connected rip through impact. You can’t do if you’re not holding on tight, and you can’t hold on tight if you’re not doing it. He comes into the zone ‘open’ as it were, and leaves ‘closed’ as it were, but like I was saying above, really it’s neither. HIs thrust, which is speed, makes it work because he’s increasing CF in the way I described above. Furyk never has any real arm rotation through the zone and he comes in with a pretty square face. He uses what I feel is a hold shot with huge body rotation while staying in posture- this, imo, is why he hits it very straight but is quite short.
SeniorFuryk1.jpg


SeniorFuryk3.jpg

I smell a cathartic event…and rats have an acute sniffer!

Lots of stuff to talk about Bom. It may be small point, but in my view the face is held square by the forces at work instead of an effort to hold it square thru intention. The sweet spot is rolling, or turning down, if you will, when the late hands fire out of P3.

Good stuff again :slight_smile: RR

I would agree with this. Part of the point that I’m trying to get at, and it’s tough to get people to break their love affair with the reading the face, is that in a lot of ways, Senior’s clubface is ‘squarer’ than Furyk’s in terms of sweet spot. Furyk has no arm or clubface rotation through the zone, and I think this goes against the point you make about in terms of what’s holding it through there. He has little or no right hand involved in his swing, so I don’t think he’s firing anything, as such. He basically swings through there on his left arm, and it’s not rotating. The main reason for Furyk’s bent right elbow and wrist going through the zone, is that it’s just hanging there, doing very little of anything- his double(maybe triple at this point) overlap right hand grip plays a huge role in this. Senior clearly has a lot more ‘forces at work’ yet the face isn’t being held ‘square’ as it would be known. He has massive active arm/hand rotation coming out of the slot, coupled with one of the biggest functional upper cut thrusts ever. They’re very different golf swings to me. What they have in common though is constant torso rotation, so the club never flips independently- this is an essential part of a good golf swing, and they both do it perfectly, but in different ways.
I’m going to add some photos. To me, I can see Furyk’s right arm as very soft and going along for the ride. He doesn’t load much with his right side so the hand doesn’t have much to offer- he spends most of the time ‘swinging’(bad word) around his left side axis. Senior has a massive thrust off his right side with active rotation- he doesn’t seem to go around without also going up. His was one of the terrible golf swings that I didn’t like when I was younger(along with Mark James etc. :blush: ) and I only started analyzing it after hearing Lag speak so highly of it. It’s an amazing action really- I see it as all about maximizing impact force… it’s not surprising he compressed the crap out of the ball. I would not want Peter Senior to punch me at any point in my life, but I think I could handle what Furyk has to offer.
Btw, this is the photo of Senior’s right leg and arm relationship that I was trying to post and show you a while ago- I changed the type of file so I could post it. It’s interesting to see his right leg and foot rotate in tandem with his right arm and hand…
Furyk R arm1.jpg
Furyk R arm2.jpg

Bom,
I certainly don’t have the answer…but I am watching ( :open_mouth: ) with interest.

One difference that I see… while Senior looks like he may have released more than Furyk, Senior looks like he as retained more right wrist wedge than Furyk…but I don’t know what that means.

We’ll all learn something.

What an interesting series of posts BomGolf222…

This subject is right at the heart of ABS and its interesting that you focus on Senior who has a slightly strange looking action but whom I know Lag has the utmost respect for as a top shelf ballstriker.

I think that pivot stall is the major reason that one gets the flippy wristed stuff but it really is one hell of a job to replicate that action although Lag has really dissected the component actions extremely well in his modules. I really like this quote…

Mike Austin described how he regarded the swing as stepping forward and throwing an uppercut punch…an uppercut Bolo punch.

The first time I saw Senior’s swing, I thought the same thing…just fierce. The manner in which he rips that club up post impact with his torso, it appears as if he’s going to rupture a hole right through the sky like it was a piece of fabric.

I would imagine his core muscles are like that of a boxer. Just like Bom doesn’t want to be on the receiving end of a punch, I don’t know that I’d necessarily want to give him one to the gut either…might break a knuckle or two.

Bom, it has always looked to me as if Furyk’s clubface is squared as a result of his torso opening so quickly…is that what you’re saying? His chest is almost facing dirctly at the target while his hands and arms are still at his side. He’s squaring it, just not with hands/forearms?

Andy

This is a great observation, Eagle, and there’s more to it than you’d think. The hand has little or no rotational ability on it’s own(the knuckles and fingers can move off the wrist, but when held in a fist like shape like the grip, it’s got no independent rotation) This is relevant for both clubface rotation and acceleration. The hands basically have 270 degrees of rotational ability but it all comes from the arms. Without the upper arm it has 180 degrees, so the upper arm contributes 90 degrees to the total. Upper arm connection to the torso, as well as the fact that our palms basically face eachother in the grip(in that postion one arm reaches the limit of it’s outward rotation before the other arm reaches it’s inward limit, therefore basically eliminated the upper arm/shoulder joint motion) Connection and a palm facing grip(approx) work together to basically limit us to 180 degrees. Of this 180, we have 90 on each side of set up square. If you hold your hands together in a prayer like position in front of you, and open them up like a book, you can see that they go basically 90 either side. This represents the total amount of potential face rotation in the swing- basically. Everyone I’ve asked to do check these numbers on all fall into these round about numbers so I assume this is the basic ‘design’.
Looking at Senior you can see that active forearm/wrist rotation through the zone. In my mind he’s not holding or retaining that angle so much as he’s creating it through proper acceleration. Like I was saying above, the only way for the hands to have any independent rotation or motion away from the forearm is through the fingers and knuckle motion. If your fingers are together and held firm, the hand has essentially no independent rotation away from the forearms. Hold the end of your forearm as close to the wrist as you can, it’s a delicate area to secure because there’s lots of stuff in there. You’ll see that the hand cant move rotationally without moving the forearm bones. It’s a pretty clever idea to have two bones leading to the wrist from the elbow. As an aside, the more you dig into the body and try to figure out how it moves and works, the more incredible you realize that it is. Even just looking at the wrist like that and seeing how the two bones twist in tandem to move the hand, it’s pretty crazy clever.
So the hands have an effective rotational ability of 180 degrees but it all comes from arm rotation, not hand rotation. This has massive implications on how we move the golf club, and for me, how I see the club moving. It’s a very steady feeling to rotate the wrists through impact, it feels very connected but at the same time, powerful. It doesn’t feel flashy like it does when it feels like the hands are doing the squaring/rotating. I like the sequencing of the numbers too, they comfort me because I sense that they have a purpose for being like they are. It forces a firmness into your grip, active arm rotation and shoulder/torso rotation. Like I was saying in a post a while ago about gripping the club firmly in the last three fingers of the left hand- if you do it, it’s pretty hard not to have some amount of functional rotation, because it forces you to move or snap bones and/or ligaments/tendons. When you see these things, it becomes clearer that it’s a whole body action and that everything happens everywhere. I’m opening too many doors for the time I have right now and I don’t want to gloss of things because in my view, this is very important and dictates the hows and whys of the swing…

Very intresting stuff Bom. I did a review about the hand/Forearm action a while ago (it could be on the private side). To just sum it up; the “Wrist Joint” consisits of 8 small bones and connects the hand to the forearm. It can bend forward and backward and upward and downward but has “Zero” rotation. That motion comes from the two joints that connect the two bones in the forearm, one near the wrist and the other near the elbow. These tow jonts are kind of specialized as they dont have a joint cavity and are called the upper and lower Radio-Ulnar Synostosis. OK that enough for anatomy.

The other interesting point you make is the cancelling of the rotation of the arms as the lateral rotation reaches its limit before the medial rotation of the other arm; Very intuitive and well studied. Although just about right now I am experimenting with this and especially in the backswing I think we do have to employ that little of arm rotation as it seems to help me keep rotating my torso and keep the arms away from the body.
Once again very informative.

I’m on a bit of a reply delay here but I’m getting there…

This is a really great phrase and image, Aldear- great stuff. I’ve never stood beside him when he’s hitting balls but I can imagine that fierce is the word.
I think you’re right on about Furyk and how he squares the club, it’s all body rotation. He’s the most like a wheel I’ve ever seen because he’s not very sequential in terms of delay and catch up, which goes a fair way to explain the fairly extreme nature of his body rotation- it’s most of his speed so it has to go, but it’s not a whole lot because he’s got no real active arm rotation. He obviously creates some speed because he can move the ball and compete and win on the biggest stages, but he’s no ripper. I have a larger analysis of his action, and more to say about the ‘squaring’ and ‘opening’ question but I have an interesting story about him, and it’s one of the reasons I’ve focused on his action. A student(becoming friend) of mine, a guy I’ve gotten to know pretty well over the last while, is a member at Riviera in LA. He’s 72 years old and still gets up every morning expecting to play his best round of golf- he’s a great guy. I’ve got lots of great stories about him…
Anyway, he caddied for a lot of great players when he was a kid- Mike Souchak, Gardner Dickinson, Harry Cooper, etc., etc… When he was 17(a few years ago) he hitchhiked across 4 states with his golf clubs on his back to get to Baltusrol to watch Hogan play! This guy LOVES golf! He’s seen Hogan play a few times, and watched him hit balls, and he’s watched all the greats through the years at Riviera etc. The point- he says the closest he’s ever seen anyone come to hit it like Hogan is… Jim Furyk. Hard for some to believe, but he swears by it. He said he’s never seen a ball hang in the air and fall gently down to the right the way Hogan did it until he saw Furyk. Pretty damn cool. So, I’m not knocking Furyk’s action by any stretch, I’m just trying to understand it and the swing in general. Btw, I’m a huge fan of Johnny Miller, nobody comes close to him as a commentator or analyst imo.

Cheers, Macs, thanks for the confirmation on that research. It’s fascinating stuff to me, and it’s cool to hear your overview had similar conclusions. In regard to your backswing practice you’re doing there, it’s interesting that on the backswing it’s harder to rotate the right arm because it’s at the outer limit of it’s rotational journey, and this also explains why it has power coming out of the slot- it’s stretched in a lot of ways. This also explains in some way why Hogan recommended using the left arm to control the backswing- it has more going power due to the the extra rotation it has in that direction, while the right arm is actually being stretched, as I said, and isn’t inclined to want to rotate. The left harm has a free 90 degrees of rotation, followed by a stretched 90- that isn’t actually used, while the right’s journey is all a stretched 90. It’s really fascinating stuff…
Cheers…

That’s a great story Bom…Souchak is a legend here in San Antonio as he shot a 60 at the Old Brackenridge Golf Course in 1955 to win the Texas Open. I am sure I am not pointing out anything you don’t already know, but to my eyes Hogan had a move similar to Seniors post impact. It wasn’t as volatile as Senior’s, and wasn’t as “up” as Seniors…it was more left and out. But he really looks like he’s just levergaing against his body to rip that club up and left. I suspect it’s not as noticeable, because it’s “on plane” as opposed to Seniors viscous upper thrust.

You should get your buddy to put a bunch of those stories down on tape for posterity. I used to write a “History” column for a fishing magazine and really enjoyed getting to know the old timers and their stories…priceless stuff. I would LOVE to have interviewed Herman Mitchell…Trevino’s old caddy. I bet he had some fantastic stories.
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Good eye on the Hogan/Senior similarities… one of the things that always puzzled me back in the day about Hogan, was how he came up out of his posture. His rear end line moves towards the ball more than most good golfers, and it confused me. But if you look at what his upper body does at the same time, you can see the balancing going on. Senior has a massive up and away action through impact- it’s a real CF creator imo, pure speed. Hogan did the same thing. They served the club and it’s acceleration, nothing else, and that’s our only goal too.
I hear you about the old guys, I’m a big ‘old guy’ fan- somehow I’ve got buddies that I hang out with that are a lot older than me, but it never seems that way. Maybe I’m a curmudgeon before my time- I’m okay with that, preparation is key :slight_smile:
Cheers…

With the lines on his shirt, you can really get a feel for how flat and level his shoulders rotate through and post impact.
The mastery of this is to do it from a deep 4:30 line with an open clubface at P3, not from a big OTT move… and this can be confusing for people when you start to study this action. All these things need to work together, and Senior had some of the best ground pressures I ever saw back when he was in his prime. I’m sure it still looks good… but I don’t think it’s quite what it was back then using the heavier gear.

I have no doubt that this is the best way to strike a golf ball, because if you do this, you are keeping the shaft on plane, you are holding shaft flex, and minimizing post impact clubface rotation. Every guy I have seen do this flushes it. And from my own journey through the swing, the closer I get to this type of action the better I hit it… without a doubt.

Sure there are other ways to hit a ball… lots of them. But if you are going to work on your swing… if you choose to travel the path toward improvement… why not work on great stuff?

Even the slower versions of this type of action such as Faldo had, showed the world some of the best ball control under the most pressure situations.