Should I or not, put ABS flat lie angles on my collection of playable vintage golf iron sets?

John_Sing · July 14, 2026, 1:41am

I have to say, these early MacGregors, now that they are set to ABS specs, are sweet! They really play well.

I am certain that the only reason I have been hitting the ball well and can now play with these, is because of applying and practicing ABS principles. As @twomasters said in: Holding Shaft Flex... The Holy Grail of Golf - #292 by twomasters (post 291 in that thread):

@twomasters : " I have never tried to hit the ball with the clubhead- I have tried to make the ball move by using the entire club"
@twomasters : "[quote=“twomasters, post:292, topic:260”]
John and I know we can see ground forces by doing drill 2 with the carpet (for eg) Just like if we hit PV5 with a vertical shaft we all know the pivot is moving faster than the club or hands can.
[/quote]

It’s concepts and teachings like this, that makes it possible for a 12 handicap like myself, to be able to enjoy playing vintage classic irons.

Here’s the next two vintage iron sets that will get adjusted to the aforementioned ABS lie specs.

I’ll report back when those are done and tested.

Newman · July 16, 2026, 4:14am

Those are both fantastic iron sets. I think you’re gonna like how they turn out.

John_Sing · July 22, 2026, 9:32pm

Just played a practice round with the aforementioned MacGregor P59 / 985s.
Really sweet clubs. Combined with whatever ABS skill that I have, the flat ABS lie angles have made a big positive difference. Even though these MacGregor clubs have regular shafts and aren’t weighted super heavy, the ball strike off of these clubs feels great, excellent compression,
straight ball flight with height and stopping power.

I continue to be astounded that thx to ABS and @lagpressure and @twomasters,
I am able to strike the ball with these vintage clubs well and in the center of the club. That’s totally due to having a totally new, learned-within-the-past-3-years-since-starting-ABS, method of striking the ball (my old swing I’m sure never would have been able to deliver this).

The Hogan 1961 Power Thrusts and Hogan 1963 Improved Power Thrusts are now in
to my clubmaker, getting the ABS treatment. Let’s hope the experiment to convert all my vintage sets over to ABS specs, continues to go well. Stay tuned.

RangeRat · July 23, 2026, 6:20pm

Will do. I have the rabbit ears up, and VHF is strong…

Blades4life · July 25, 2026, 1:19am

The regular shafts are probally a huge bonus for you just knowing a little bit about your past injuries and golf journey from reading your post on the forum.

John_Sing · July 29, 2026, 6:34pm

I got the Hogan 1960 Power Thrusts and Hogan 1963 Improved Power Thrusts back from
my clubmaker, with the ABS treatment. So far, so good! They play well, much better now for my ABS swing vs. when they were at the standard lies. I played today with the 1971 Hogan Round Soles which also were set to full ABS spec’s - same positive result.

So, the experiment to convert all my vintage sets over to ABS specs, continues to go well. I have my own personal proof points that as @lagpressure has said, if one wants to use the ABS methodology, you really can’t do that with equipment at standard lies.

Now, there’s more to report and tinker. The above vintage Hogan 1960 PT, 1963 IPT, 1971 Round Sole sets all have regular shafts and standard lengths (for their era) - for my 67 year old body and slower swing speeds, this has been really good so far. My other vintage sets that are at standard lengths (Including the 1958 Hogan Starburst with regular shafts) are going to get the same ABS lie angle treatment.

The next experimentation / research is: what to do about the 2000 Hogan Apex Plus and the 1961 Wilson Dynapower Turfriders. Both sets have stiff shafts (Apex 4 and True Temper S400 respectively) and both have shafts that are 1" extra. Both of these require much more of my ABS rotation and strength of strike and ABS fundamentals than the regular-shafted sets. I play decently well with the Hogan 2000 Apex Plus, but they’re currently setup 0 or 1 or 2 degrees above ABS specs depending on the club (albeit quite flat from the standard lies). The extra shaft length and the stiff shafts clearly means I shouldn’t have the exact same lie angles as the regular shafted, shorter length vintage ABS sets. Some modification probably necessary to the lie angle ABS specs to accommodate the extra length … but to exactly what, remains to be seen. I have a set of John Erickson-built very flat ABS Hogan Bounce Soles with the same shaft lengths that are very heavy with very stiff shafts… and I’m still working on being able to hit those as well as my regular-shafted vintage ABS sets.

So, more to learn and tinker and test.

It’s the journey, not the destination! Stay tuned.

Blades4life · July 29, 2026, 7:56pm

Good to hear that you accept the reality that those regular flex shafts are not a detriment but a huge benefit for your current swing dynamics. It’s a conversation I have with a lot of my players over 65 years of age.
Cheers

John_Sing · August 6, 2026, 12:10am

ABS lie angles 1960 Hogan Power Thrust irons

Today (August 5, 2026), I played a practice round with the
now-set-to-full-ABS-spec 1960 Hogan Power Thrust irons.

It was a great day. My current ABS swing really loves the ABS flat
lie angles. I hit some great iron shots (for my skill level), penetrating,
compression, straight. The Power Thrusts felt great. While I had to get
used to the shorter (standard-for-their-time) shaft lengths, I was able to
strike the sweet spot on these irons reliably and crisply.

So far, the “full ABS lie angle specs” experiment on my vintage iron sets is
a resounding success.

While of course there’s many factors at play here (notably I have been
drilling ABS / Hogan for 3.5 years now and my ABS skill is improving even
at age 67 1/2) … but I can certainly say, my old pre-ABS swing would
never have produced the shots that was able to hit today. I would say
even 6-9 months ago, my ABS skill level wasn’t high enough to strike
these irons this well. But today…… happiness.

As @blades4life has suggested above, at my age and now slowly
decreasing swing speed, I am happy that this set has True Temper “Rocket”
regular shafts. At my slower swing speed, ABS technique works well
with the regular shafts. My other stiff-shafted sets require do require
much more pivot effort.

(I will get an update video on my swing posted to “Post Your Swing”
thread within the next couple of weeks. Who knows what we’ll see….)

For purposes of documentation, after a lot of trial and error,
here following is the lie angles that I am now setting on all my
standard length regular-shaft vintage iron sets.

LIE ANGLE CHART…….. John Sing’s …………. my guess estimate
Club…. ABS lie spec….. 1960 ABS Hogan … of Standard 1960 Hogan
………………………………… Power Thrust …… Lie angles
……………………………………………………………………………………………
……………………………………………………………………………… Club
……………………………………………………………………………… length
…………………………………………………………………………………………………
2………. 52/54 ……………….. 54 …………………. 55 ………………. 38.5”
3………. 53/55 ……………….. 55 …………………. 56 ………………. 38”
4………. 54/56 ……………….. 56 …………………. 57 ………………. 37.5”
5………. 55/57 ………………… 56 …………………. 58 ………………. 37”
6………. 56/58 ………………… 57 …………………. 59 ………………. 36.5”
7………. 56/58 ………………….57 …………………. 60 ………………. 36.25”
8………. 57/59 ………………… 58 ……………….… 61 ………………. 36"
9………. 57/59 ………………… 59 ……………….… 62 ……….……… 35.5”
E/PW… 58/60 ………………….59 …………………. 62………….……. 35.5”

Now, the experiment is far from over. I am next figuring out,
what to do with other sets that have longer shafts and/or
different characteristics; also, what lies to set my gap wedge at.

—————

1 - I am resetting my 1989 Hogan Edge regular shaft set to the same
above ABS specs. This is the same set where I went “near-ABS” (lie angles
were flatter than standard but did not go to able full ABS flat lies) and
I had lackluster results. When I get those back after being bent to above
full ABS specs, those also will be tested and we’ll see if “full-ABS-specs”
makes those sets much more playable for my current ABS swing.

————

2 - I need to figure out what lie to set my 51 degree loft Hogan K-grind
gap wedge. I have set one of these to 59 degrees lie (from the previous
61 degrees I had them at) to make the gap wedge match the above
ABS specs. I am finding that for pitch shots, the 59 degree lie angle
gap wedge requires me to make some wedge technique modifications
compared to how I use the 61 degree lie angle gap wedge.

Specifically, with the flatter 59 degree lie angle gap wedge, on pitch
shots, I find I need to rotate much more ABS, with left shoulder and
orbit pull, in order to hit pitch shots well. Clearly, my wedge technique
and skill (or lack therefore) with the 61 degree lie angle gap wedge is
less ABS oriented. Even though that’s familiar, it’s worthwhile experiment
to see if I can learn to recreate my current pitching skill with a much
flatter gap wedge.

So I am side by side testing the 59 degree lie angle wedge with my 61 degree
lie angle gamer wedge, learning as I go. Stay tuned here.

———————

3 - Finally, I need to figure out what to do with my 1” over Hogan Apex
Plus irons which are my current gamers, as well as what lie angles to set
on the 1.5” over standard length 1961 Wilson Dynapower Turfriders
with Dynamic Gold S300 shafts, that I got at my local Goodwill. Someone
had done a nice job of refitting modern shafts to these clubs.

Since these clubs are longer length than the other vintage standard length
sets, conventional wisdom says I should just use the standard
rules of thumb for “extra length vs. lie angle adjustment” rules…….

However, I play the 2000 Hogan Apex Plus (Apex 4) as my gamers,
and even though their shafts are longer than my vintage sets,
and their current lie angles are slightly more upright than true ABS….
(their lie angle specs are in a previous table in a previous post
above in this thread)…..But I hit them so well, when I can get my
67.5 yr old body to execute ABS post-impact pivot thrust adequately
to handle them.

So for the time being, I am setting these 1961 Wilson Dynapower
Turfriders to the same specs as my 2000 Hogan Apex Plus
irons. We’ll see how that goes. Can always re-bend their lie angles
in future as needed.

———————————————

The joy of experimentation. I think at this point we can summarize
my experience so far, for what it’s worth:

A - full ABS lie angles have made all my regular shaft vintage golf iron sets play
much much better for my ABS swing. I really could not hit them
well with my ABS swing trying to hit their previous standard lie angles which are +3 to +5
degrees more upright.

B - The longer length, stiffer shafted iron sets, still are in continuing
experimentation mode. Stay tuned.

C - Flat wedge lie angles affect pitch shot and short game technique.
I am experimenting and (re)learning how some of that will work for me
with the ABS-flat gap wedge. Any thoughts or advice here???

C - Everyone is different. I’ve arrived at this through a ton of trial and
error. Learning every step of the way. Being open to things changing
as my ABS skill changes. So your mileage will probably vary also.

Paraphrasing Hogan, @lagpressure, and @twomasters: “we all have
to do enough reps to ‘dig it out of the dirt’ for ourselves and our
own body, nothing can replace doing the reps so that we develop
own body feels that work for us”. (This is why the Drills are so valuable!)

D - IMHO, ABS clearly provides
a proven guiding framework to make our pursuit worthwhile, we’re following
in proven footsteps.

—————————————

I hope documenting this ABS experimentation and experience is helpful
to others. Ideally, I hope it might accelerate or give others faster
time to their own results, by documenting what my experience has been.

Certainly, it’s been and continues to be a fun journey for me. Thx for ALL OF YOU
who are out there sharing info on this forum, I learn tons every day from all the
threads and ideas that are everywhere here.

John Sing

August 5, 2026
Venice, Florida, USA

Blades4life · August 6, 2026, 2:46pm

I’m glad it is working out for you and I know from experience that many golfers would benefit from a regular flex shaft simply due to father time is undefeated and it requires less work. As we get older Post Impact Power is one of the first things to diminish and trying to get an aggressive post impact with a shaft that is unyielding makes for a very long day on the links and actually defeats the purpose of having an enjoyable day on the course.

Shaft technology is so overlooked to be honest how butt stiffness, middle load properties and tip CPM can make or break a good golf swing.
Enjoy your journey and keep sharing your experiences we truly love hearing about it.
Cheers

John_Sing · August 6, 2026, 11:09pm

@Blades4life , thx for your input, it’s good to know that experience has shown that regular-shafts and ABS can be compatible especially for those of us heading into the autumn of our speed-generating years. This certainly seems to be the case for me when comparing the performance my vintage regular shafted clubs with the more stout stiff-shafted sets. I’ll still intend to play with the stiff-shafted sets a lot to get myself to learn as much about my ABS post-impact pivot thrust as I can in these autumn years.

Regarding wedge technique, it’s clear that giving myself a 59 degree flat lie angle gap wedge (just like the other ABS flat lie clubs) clearly has the effect of forcing me to learn to use my body more on the pitch shots as well. I am finding there’s a fair amount of discussion on this topic of using ABS post impact body pivot on pitch shots, here’s one example of many: https://forum.advancedballstriking.com/t/pitching/659/2 More to learn and practice!!

John_Sing · August 6, 2026, 11:38pm

By the way, this idea of playing many multiple different sets of clubs, and switching often among them, I wouldn’t necessarily recommend for many / most people to do this. Certainly not for the average golfer who doesn’t want to work hard on their swing, for many it will be hard enough to learn to get used to one set and learn one good ABS-based swing. But for those of us who really want to see where ABS can lead them…

Because of the ABS journey and because I have started to set up all my vintage iron sets to consistent ABS specs that seem to fit my level of ABS skill… so far, it’s a delightful experience to be able to consistently hit good iron and wood/persimmon shots with many different sets. It’s a useful different (weird?) skill set to be able to enjoyably adjust to ‘which set of ABS vintage clubs am I hitting today’… that said, IMHO it’s a variation on the necessary skill of “being able to play with what one has today” and a proof point of “is my ABS skill working in practice on the course?” I do believe it is ABS skill and swing concepts and drilling, that has made this possible to do this for myself. Now that all the vintage equipment is being set up to match… so far, good things are happening. Continuing to pursue the A, B, C questions posed above… more to come.

LesMurray · August 7, 2026, 4:14am

I have 3 or 4 sets of clubs that I play interchangebly. My two favorite gamers are my '57 Hogan Precisions and my Wilson Staff Buttonbacks. All are ABS spec including weights and shaft flex.

It’s interesting because in terms of playability, they all feel very similar. The differences are in the clubhead themselves with the feel and workability.

Interesting note; I use a completely different set for my range sessions - '56 Wilson Staffs with Rocket green shafts and leather grips.

RangeRat · August 7, 2026, 1:08pm

That’s a good thing, distance control lives in that neighborhood.

John_Sing · August 8, 2026, 10:44pm

As promised, here is the swing I currently have, showing whatever ABS progress I’ve been able to achieve since January 2026. With this swing, I am able to enjoyably play all these vintage irons and clubs above, to my current level of ABS skill (I am currently a USGA 13 handicap).
Swing videos showing whatever ABS progress I’ve been able to achieve since January 2026.

Face-on 6 iron:

Face-on Driver:

Down-the-line 6 iron:

Down-the-line Driver:

Swing progress update, since my last videos January 2026. The clubs used are my current gamer irons (2000 Hogan Apex Plus, stiff Apex 4 shafts) and a mid-1970s Ben Hogan driver, Legend 3 regular shaft.

My golf swing progress in Advanced Ball Striking (ABS) ( [https://advancedballstriking.com/] ) Module 3 = post impact pivot thrust continues to get better. Even though I am 67 1/2 yrs old and clearly slowing down and hitting it shorter as the years go by… I am finding that I can still improve my fundamentals and techniques of ABS, thus allowing me to strike the golf ball straighter, more reliably, more consistently than I ever have in my life. For this, I am very very grateful to ALL my teachers and to Advanced Ball Striking.

Playlist of my golf swings over time:

It’s easy to see from this swing why I am still a 13 handicap. Many things could be improved, such as I am still extending the right arm and not yet able to ‘hold the X’ through impact and beyond.

However, the most important part is the post-impact pivot thrust and ABS intentions still (slowly) all continue to improve. The more I work on the ABS drills and daily 100-150 Magic Tricks, the more the ABS fundamentals slowly creep into my swing. Every month, the continued ABS drilling causes some little addtl light bulb / feelings to switch on. After 3.5 years since starting ABS in January 2023, I am happy with my progress… I certainly would never have discovered these much more efficient ABS swing body mechanics and feelings, if I hadn’t been doing my ABS drilling so constantly over so much time. Paraphrasing Hogan, @lagpressure, and @twomasters: “we all have to do enough reps to ‘dig it out of the dirt’ for ourselves and our
own body, nothing can replace doing the reps so that we develop own body feels that work for us”. (This is why the Drills are so valuable!) . IMHO, ABS clearly provides
a proven guiding framework to make our “digging in the dirt” pursuit worthwhile, we’re following
in proven footsteps.

My USGA handicap tracking app is telling me I’m hitting 71% of my fairways, that’s one data point I never did before! I still need to work a LOT on my approach shot proximity, short game, putting, mental game… improving in those areas are also necessary improvements to getting my handicap to still go down.

Still loving the journey!

Blades4life · August 9, 2026, 8:00pm

I totally agree if you have seen my YouTube you already know I usually change clubs on a daily basis because I’m a true club junkie. Plus I’m a firm advocate of a good player can play a tree branch and hit usable golf shots so it’s a challenge for me to switch sets and still hit my launch windows and shot shapes.

The one thing I have learned over the years and share with people is that all blades are not created equal. Some models do well in certain conditions and struggle in other conditions and it’s connected to the sole design. For instance with my swing dynamics Hogan irons are abysmal in soft lush conditions but excel in hard dry summer months. You will rarely see me playing any of my Hogans in spring or rainy seasons.

But flip the coin and Miura excel in those conditions due to the sole design same with Mizuno they play well in all conditions with my swing dynamics. Macgregor the harder the fairways the better they play with my swing dynamics so I will switch clubs based on the weather patterns we are having.

Currently Atlanta is the new Florida, we are getting brutal storms every evening.

lagpressure · August 11, 2026, 5:32am

John, I think your assessments are good. Being able to troubleshoot your own swing is of great value.

Our primary goal (golf swing) should be to increase acceleration through the strike. This will put more feel into our hands so we can know where the clubface is at. Lowpoint control can be improved simply by taking divots without a ball. Try to take 5 shallow divots in a row that basically look the same. Practice your three primary ball positions (Module 8) which will help you navigate side hill or uneven lies.

I can never emphasize Module 3 enough for both power and accuracy.

Thanks again for posting and keeping us updated on your progress!

John_Sing · August 12, 2026, 8:39pm

Thank you, @lagpressure, really appreciate your input.

Today, I played with the 1989 Hogan Edges, regular shafts - now bent to full ABS flat lies. Success!!! The clubs actually felt good in a way they’d never felt before even when they were bent to “partway to ABS flat lies”. Just like the 1960 Hogan Power Thrusts which also were bent to my particular full ABS flat lies… these 1989 Hogan Edges were working really well - the flat ABS lies in the table below, seem to be a good matchup for my current ABS swing.

LIE ANGLE CHART…….. John Sing’s ………….
Club…. ABS lie spec….. 1989 Hogan Edge … Standard 1989 Hogan
………………………………. regular shaft …….… Edge lie angles
………………………………ABS..lie angles………………………………
…………………………………………………………………………… Club
…………………………………………………………………………… length
………………………………………………………………………………std

1………..52/54…………………54……………………56…………… 39.75”
2………. 52/54 ……………….. 54 …………………. 57 ……………39.25”
3………. 53/55 ……………….. 55 …………………. 58 …………… 38.75”
4………. 54/56 ……………….. 56 …………………. 59 …………… 38.25”
5………. 55/57 ………………… 56 ………………… 60 ………..…. 37.75”
6………. 56/58 ………………… 57 ………………… 61 ……………37.25”
7………. 56/58 ………………….57 ………………… 62 ………..…. 36.75”
8………. 57/59 ………………… 58 ………………… 62.………….. 36.25"
9………. 57/59 ………………… 59 ………………… 63 ……….…. 35.75”
E/PW… 58/60 ………………… 59 …………………. 63.5………… 35.5”

I had been struggling to get these to feel and work properly with my ABS swing; earlier above in my June 23, 2026 post, you can see that I had originally bent them part of the way to ABS flat lie specs. That clearly didn’t work well.

Bottom lines for me:

Trying to go “part-way with the lie angle flattening”, combined with my ABS swing, just didn’t work well - those “partway-to-ABS-flat-lie” clubs never felt right.
When I went full ABS flat lies with my clubs - everything started to fall into place in my ABS swing. It took me 3.5 years of ABS drilling to reach this point, so it’s not an overnight express train to improvement!
Flat ABS lie angles are clearly a journey - as my time spent ABS drilling increased, my ability to handle the flat ABS lie angles increased along with it.

Now, I don’t want to discourage anyone from going “partway to ABS” as part of your journey or individual needs. It all depends on your swing patterns, where you’re coming from in terms of swing skill, how much time you’ve spent in ABS drilling… your mileage will vary. I arrived at my above ABS flat lie angle table, with a lot of trial and error, eventually settling on the above ABS specs as the ones that fit me the best. @twomasters has stated that his gamer irons are not at “full ABS flat lie specs”, he’s said his gamer irons are somewhere between 2 and 4 degrees flat ( someone please correct me if I’ve not remembered correctly). I think that everyone’s mileage will vary, you have to do testing on your own swing, and see what works for you. Remember that ABS, just like everything else in life, is a journey, not a destination.

All that said… my ball striking at age 67 1/2 has never been better. Like @lagpressure has said many times, I wish I’d know about ABS drilling when I was teenager and just starting out learning golf! But… better now than never. I’m grateful to have the opportunity to keep on drilling and playing well in the autumn years of my life. Those of you who are younger out there… Keep on (ABS) drilling!

More about the other vintage clubs and testing… the stiff-shafted 1961 Wilson Dynapowers and the regular-shafted 1958 Hogan Starbursts are also much much better for my ABS swing, now that they are also set at ABS specs. The 1958 Hogan Starbursts are still more difficult for me to hit at the current time, and that leads me to comment on the other variable: my ABS skill (or lack thereof). As I continue to drill and drill, (not surprisingly) as my ABS skill (very slowly) improves, not surprisingly the vintage clubs get easier and easier to hit and produce better and better results. I am sure my experience with the Hogan Starbursts will follow the same path, especially now that they are at ABS specs.

Comment regarding the stiff-shafted sets… I am finding that as my swing speeds keep slowing down every year at my 67.5 yr old age… I am having some difficulty handling the stiff-shafted iron sets. Those stiff Wilson Dyna-Powers and the stiff Hogan Apex Plus irons require a lot of me and my pivot and ABS fundamentals. The regular-shafted ABS irons, at my slow swing speed, seem to help me on the golf course. This doesn’t mean I’m putting away the stiff-shafted irons just yet - they are teaching me how much more and better, even at my age, that I can and should execute ABS rotation and fundamentals. I trust that at the point in time my body can no longer handle those clubs, I will be able to pass along the stiff-shafted ABS-spec clubs to someone here in ABS community who will want to use and appreciate them. With that in mind, I am going to have my stiff-shafted 1989 Hogan Edges be bent to the same ABS flat lie specs in the table above in this post, as well.

The message here is that as Father Time progresses, for us more senior players, ABS and regular-shafted clubs I think may be a good matchup for the on-course gamer clubs at some point in time. But… the stiff-shafted ABS poles are still the way to go for training, for as long as one can handle them.

I am grateful to M.U.G.S. Golf Shop, Sarasota, FL, Dave Warman who has run MUGS for decades, has been expertly setting my clubs to the requested lie angles - he has decades of experience, knows which clubs can take what, and he’s done a superb right-on job for me every time. Thank you, Dave and your wife Allison for being there for me and for us Sarasota FL golfers.

Now, I am next working on setting up some regular-shafted 2000 Hogan Apex Plus iron sets to myABS specs in preparation for the future…

John_Sing · August 12, 2026, 9:13pm

(Note: in the previous post’s table above, there’s typo on the standard lie for the 1989 Hogan Edge 8-iron, it should be 62.5 degrees standard lie angle (instead of 62)).

Blades4life · August 14, 2026, 11:59am

Yes that’s correct I asked Bradley about his clubs and he replied that his competition clubs were around 2 degrees flat but he had a set or a training club at 6 flat. I know personally I was playing at 4 degrees flat 30 years before my ABS journey started and I stayed there. I did bend a few sets to 6 flat and was able to still score but it was way to much work hitting my preferered stock draw shot and I’m a firm believer in playing to your tendencies as much as possible so I moved everything back to 4 flat across the board with all my sets.

I know @Dbain123 went to 6 flat on day one and has never looked back and is playing some of the best golf of his life as well as many others. The 6 flat also gave the club an odd look for me at address that was part of it also on on my personal account. But I have never really fought with the left side of the golf course either so 4 flat was and is my personal sweet spot.

I think that is part of this wonderful journey tinkering and finding your individual personal sweet spot where Momentum, Leverage and Dynamic Balance blend together into frictionless golf swings.
Cheers