Low ball flight with Erickson method and proper wrist arm movements in downswing

[noopynutmeg]

New here, Erickson follower/disciple for 10 years. Former college golfer, USGA AM qualifier, and match play qualifier at the USGA tournament. Won two state 4 balls.

Studied the golf swing for 30 years and have read and studied every instruction book there is (literally).

While most any sufficiently educated golf teacher/observer can identify what is wrong in a student’s swing (usually through video comparison), I believe the genius in Erickson is the way he connects and understands what kinesiological MOVEMENTS create the proper dynamic positions, particularly in the downswing. Not many understand that or can teach it, other than position by position. I think you had to be a certain level player to do that.

Believe in John’s stuff more than any other teacher. Been down some wrong paths for a bit, but am back chasing holding shaft flex and a pivot driven swing.

Enough about me…

2 issues:

1. Does anyone else suffer from solid but really low ball flight employing this method? If so would love to hear about that and how that issue was addressed/corrected? and;

2. Struggling a bit to find the correct forearm/wrist action to accompany the swing-dominant torso pivot through the shot. I have had the most success feeling as if I am just ulnar deviating the left wrist as I move through the downswing pivot, but don’t really feel any rotation. This is somewhat hit or miss for me and am really searching for this.

Anyway thought I would bounce these issues off of this group of seasoned ABS students.

Thanks in advance.

[Sawfeat]

Not sure if this is the answer you’re looking for. John has often mentioned that he feels like his left wrist is cupped through impact but in reality, because of a strong post impact pivot, the left wrist is never cupped at that point. maybe this is something you could try feeling while maintaining a strong pivot.

[boudie]

I used to be a low ball hitter and it’s hard to get out of that feeling. I feel like if I do ABS correctly it’s going to be more off my right side even though i’m moving left and I will retain more loft and won’t go low. I’m not seeing that currently because I need more drilling but if I do magic trick drill correctly and some Hogan mods from P1 with a trip the ball will go higher. Not sure that helps but what Paul says makes sense. Lots of good players turn down the face for control which could be you from years and years of what sounds like pretty good golf. It’s really really hard to make changes.

[noopynutmeg]

Thanks so much, will try. I feel like maybe I have a closed clubface and my body just knows where the face is and responds accordingly. In my case, the slightly closed clubface would results in more shaft lean to maintain a square face to hit straight shots, hence the low shots? My left hand grip is fairly strong, not terribly so…

[noopynutmeg]

Do you think this face is shut at 430? Could that be the issue?

[Sawfeat]

Such a good position here, easy to see why you’re a good player. You can tell your left hand grip is on the stronger side by looking at your left wrist in comparison to the clubface. This is probably the main reason for a lower trajectory, although there’s nothing wrong with that…i.e. Trevino. You’re probably just used to a bit stronger grip and just accommodate. Here’s an old pic of Snead to see a contrast.

[noopynutmeg]

Man, what a good pic to illustrate your point and my suspicion! Thanks a lot!

Yeah the issue is my irons are too low to hold greens to certain pins as I get older and lose some clubhead speed. Need the loft at this point in my golf career to do that.

But this gives me the gameplan to address this now, after trying to guess at the cause of my low ball flight. Weaken that left hand, and likely have to add in some forearm rotation as I do that I suspect.

Thanks so much Paul!

[jleber]

Also, make sure your irons don’t have any offset. Offset will cause you to hook it too. There’s a number of threads on the forum about why offset is bad for an ABS swing approach.

[lagpressure]

Not sure if this is the answer you’re looking for. John has often mentioned that he feels like his left wrist is cupped through impact but in reality, because of a strong post impact pivot, the left wrist is never cupped at that point. maybe this is something you could try feeling while maintaining a strong pivot.

THIS!

[lagpressure]

Feel the cupped left wrist at the top.. and feel like your left wrist is cupped at impact also.
If you are accelerating.. it won’t be.. but nothing wrong with feeling this.

Trying to feel this would seem absolutely wrong based upon traditional FLW instruction.. but if your left shoulder is accelerating through the strike, the left wrist has the green light to RESIST and feel cupped or bent.

The ball doesn’t lie.. if the flight is too low, the club is getting delofted probably from a belief that the FLW is a must.

The FLW needs to be created dynamically.. not forced or with the hands pushing forward through swinger handle dragging etc.

[lagpressure]

I would work on getting your left wrist more cupped on the downswing…
hard to make grip changes. Try to feel the left wrist cupped at impact while hitting HARD!

[noopynutmeg]

Thanks so much for responding John, I really appreciate your insight, echoing Paul’s advice! Will do!

Yes I think the low ball flight is caused by the relatively shut/strong position of my clubface to my left hand, resulting in too much shaft lean at impact, trying to keep the face square (not trying to get the shaft lean, I think that is the result). As I said, I think through almost 50 years of playing competitive golf, I kind of “know” where the face is and subconsciously do what is necessary not to hit a hook. That is probably why I am hitting it low (with too much shaft lean) vs. hooking it (if I didn’t have the excessive shaft lean, in essence holding off the face).

The shaft lean is not intentional, but rather is the result of my attempt to keep the face square.

I have hope that either through the bent left wrist or better matching up the club face to the left wrist this will resolve itself and add more loft to my iron shots. In either event, I think I understand your message that the face needs to be more open throughout the swing, including at the 430 line.

Thanks again so much!

[lagpressure]

Keep us posted on this… as I am sure others will have similar issues. These forums are great to document these things for future generations as well!

The “dead hands” swingers release stuff promotes the big forward shaft lean and timing the strike at lowpoint with everything coming into an “inline” position.. which is very timing based and difficult to repeat.

With hitting, we use a firmer tighter grip and wrists through the strike to stabilize lowpoint ACTIVELY and not just trust the whims of whatever CF is going to deliver us that day.

The key here is really the orbit pull… 4:30 entry 7:30 exit. Hands cut left but clubface stays looking at the target. Big pressure in the hands while striving to hold shaft flex stablizing lowpoint and clubface both.

[noopynutmeg]

Thanks John! Yeah working through this now…trying to eliminate handle dragging as a cause before I change the clubface/left hand relationship and/or utilize the bent left wrist feeling. This effort is beginning with a more active/conscious wrist uncocking from club parallel in the downswing while I maintain the torso pivot and that left exit, and determining if the ball will go higher without it going left.

I will keep this updated as I work through this.

[noopynutmeg]

So I am providing the update that I promised. Been beating balls daily to address this and have occasional assistance from a teacher I really trust who understands the golf swing very well as a second set of eyes.

As usual, it was not one thing, but three things that were all connected. To fix the low ball flight I had to understand the connection between my closed clubface and how that manifested in my swing and game. I have been a competitive golfer most of my life, and I’m saying that to just help the board understand that my body and hands know where the clubface is in my swing. Because of this, my closed clubface did NOT lead to hooks (because my body and hands wouldn’t allow it); but instead, it led to low shots via handle dragging and a very limited release of my radial deviation and too much side bend (all trying to hold the face square), and too much shaft lean at impact. This resulted in very low shots with the divot too far in front of the ball.

To address this, I have 1) weakened the relationship between the clubface and my left wrist, 2) worked to actively ulnar deviate my wrists (impact bag work to get club “in line” by impact, and 3) coupling the active wrist deviation with active extension of the left leg and hips by impact.

This was difficult at first, especially the weakened relationship between the clubface and left hand, as John predicted ), but found that I needed to get the back of left hand and the clubface more in line. Why? Because without weakening the grip, which I tried initially, I would never ulnar deviate/ release as that action does close the face (and I wouldn’t allow the ball to hook). And I needed the leg/hip extension to keep the low point appropriate with the new, active ulnar deviation (vs. holdoff/retain wrist angle).

After thousands of balls, these changes have resulted in less shaft lean at impact and less side bend, which for me is a good thing. The results have been great so far and I love the feeling of freeing up my hands to hit the ball vs. using my hands to try and avoid hooking it. It feels free and aggressive.

Still a work in progress, but have a USGA qualifier coming up in a month, so really trying to continue this along rapidly.

John and Paul, would love your thoughts on all of this. Hope its clear!

[Sawfeat]

I felt like you needed to weaken your grip to achieve your goal of a higher ball flight. It is a really hard thing to do though, so good for you for diving in and putting in the work.

The big thing is a cupped left wrist on the backswing, and the feeling it is still cupped through impact while achieving an aggressive post impact pivot.

If you work hard on the pivot, you won’t need leg extension to find the low point. Ideally, you want a slightly flexed left leg through impact, your hands orbit pulling left, club facing target and left shoulder leading the pivot. This will prevent your hands from getting too high through impact. Likely this is why you currently feel you need leg extension to get the low point (hands a bit too high at impact).
This is something I’m still fighting, I really need to work hard on my post impact pivot, especially the orbit pull.

Don’t overthink it too much, the drills will do the work for you. Especially with some competitive golf coming up, I’d just do ABS drills with your slightly weaker grip and let the drills slowly work into your swing. That way you aren’t thinking golf swing while playing.

[noopynutmeg]

Thanks, this is really interesting. “Don’t over think it,” you obviously don’t know me! Yes am trying both the cupped wrist and the weaker left hand grip.

Yeah weakening grip is hard, but I am committed to creating a more unified position with my left hand and clubface so this will continue.

My old, “bad” impact had too much shaft lean, side bend and quite a bit of flex in my left leg at impact, all trying to linearly maintain the “hold off” to keep the face square.

While I am sure that the closed clubface is the “why” as to why I am creating this extra side bend and shaft lean, I think part of the problem (and I know this is a dangerous thought for the Erickson method ), was I was holding too much right elbow bend for too long in the downswing. Now, I know this is a clubface closing action (and thereby reinforcing the need for a better (for me, weaker) left hand-clubface relationship, but holding all of the right elbow bend for too long seems to have created the problems I am having (excessive side bend, shaft lean and low shots) just to hit the ball. The increased straightening of the right arm really seems to reduce the side bend and the excessive shaft lean. I still have a bent right arm at impact, but it FEELS like I am straightening it throughout the downswing. Ball is going higher with this action…

Paul, I appreciate your and John’s input–thoughts here?

Cheers.

T

[k2baloo]

Really impressive you weakened your grip seemingly fast. I have a strong grip and have never been able to weaken it - not a trivial change at all.
I have the opposite problem of you though - I hit the ball high, sometimes higher than I want.

[Sawfeat]

Just some food for thought…If you are able to create a post impact pivot where the hands go low left before going up, and your shoulders feel level (they won’t be, just intention), then your right arm will never be too bent.
This is total ABS protocols.
I personally struggle with keeping my right arm bent post impact into P4, I’ve been a bit of a thrower all my career.
You paint a very good picture of your old swing, I can totally visualize what it looks like. Sounds like you’re heading the right direction with what you’re doing. Be careful not to create other bad habits by trying to get there too quick.
Drills, drills, drills…don’t over think it, lol

[noopynutmeg]

I mean, it’s definitely a work in progress. Feels awful!