Let's Talk Lag's Golf Machine

Essential Reading
161

Gerry - no need to keep repeating the “nothing personal” stuff, we get it. I am sorry if I have offended your ego for dis-agreeing with your original post. You seem really hung up about the Search test results. I find them somewhat wanting in complete accuracy as to the nature of the test and the results. I gave several examples that challenge your belief on the face of it, which you are certainly free to ignore. I have no problem with it, and I am not sure why we are still even discussing this issue, except for the ego thing I mentioned in my second sentence here. You may be right about the inner workings of how Tiger actually creates his stop, but I have watched it many times, and to my eye he appears to be starting his Transition at normal speed, and then stops Halfway down. I have no way of knowing - nor do you - when his mind first “decides” to stop. Or even to what degree he is employing conscious awareness, it may be a kind of pre-conscious or subtle mind awareness with an instinctive response. I only know he appears to start his downswing normally and then he stops. I know about the time delay, you keep harping on that, it is an important part of my teaching method, I have done my research and mentioned two books that deal with reaction time, motor programs and how they can and cannot be changed mid-stream. The science backs up my view. Read the books and get back to me if you still disagree.

I also know the time delay you described in your example is considerably less than a quarter second, you have your nerve type and nerve signal speed dead wrong, as I explained in an earlier post. We are arguing not about the really important Principle from a golf teaching and learning standpoint, which is that the downswing and indeed even the backswing should be a pre-programmed motion from the subconscious mind, and NOT a result of conscious interference or attempted conscious interference. That is the key issue and one that we appear to be in agreement on.

As for trick shot artists, making what appear to be making swing changes after the downswing begins, I have no idea how they do it, only that they do it, probably through hours of practice. Nice of you to come to your own conclusion with zero evidence to back it up that I can only succeed in making the shot selected 30% of the time. Perhaps I was guilty of false modesty with my “sometimes” qualifier, but in truth, I am not a ballstriking machine and my success rate is closer to 75%. My assistants wait until they see my Top position and then shout out “Low” and I respond - instinctively I might add, not in any way consciously through will power or “choice” - and my body makes an adjust to hit the low shot, mainly less right spine tilt than normal. I am for certain not able to respond until the downswing has started due to the time delay. Yet my body is making a change. This is just one more example that shows the Search test to be flawed in it’s conclusions.

My normal downswing time interval is right at 1/4 second if you measure it from when the clubhead changes direction, 3/8 second or a bit faster if you measure it from when my left hip starts to shift laterally to the left.

You seriously need to review your data and re-think your position on this issue. Again - this does not mean that conscious swing thoughts, the way the average golfer uses them, are effective ways of changing the downswing. They are not and I have been teaching that idea and preaching it even for well over thirty five years now.

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Stinkler - as I said to Gerry, we don’t know how exactly Tiger does it, only that he appears to start the downswing normally and then comes to a complete frozen stop in the identical body and club position as a stop action photo. He has done this at least twice in my viewing the broadcasts. You may well be right about the bird thing. The first time it was a photographer I believe who snapped a picture as he started his downswing.

Back to the Search test, I am in Hawaii and so dont have access to my copy, but if I remember correctly, the scientists concluded that the pros could not do anything - at least visible to their eyes - to change their swing, after the first part of Transition, ie early into the downswing. Too bad Tiger wasn’t around to participate in that test!

163

Gerry, the dim, dark reaches of my (very good) red wine infused brain remembers you designed golf clubs that Greg Chappell promoted as something special. Whatever happened to them and why were they so different?

And … in that other forum you were about to release the simple secrets of a fade … care to throw light on this?

164

Yes, you nailed it… this is the primary difference between hitting and swinging. A swinger is trying to “time” a downward straightening of the shaft… much like cracking a whip tip… timing the snap of the whip’s tip right at the moment of impact…
therefore… TIMING! lot’s of it. A swinger uses a momentum strike at the ball… void of acceleration. After the whip tip cracks… game over…

swingers… p=mv (momentum = mass x velocity)

For the hitter…
The clubshaft itself can contain a certain amount of shaft lag… or prestress. This can only come about by the hands moving faster than the clubhead … but in a form 3 lever set up…( think teeter totter … fulcrum at one end, force in the middle, weight on the other end) This accelerates the clubhead tangentially … in other words… accelerating the clubhead on the circumference of the arc or path of the clubhead. You can’t do this with passive hands… and this is what all the TGM guys, as clever as they think they are… don’t get it… they absolutely don’t get it… This is the core of hitting, and it has to be done with the hands… but VERY VERY late in ht game… it can feel as if the hit doesn’t happen until after impact. The right arm does not have the leverage nor the speed to do it … This is part 1 of where TGM and I part ways… the hit is with the hands not the right arm.

Once the hands fire and create the pre stress, then we utilize post impact pivot thrust to take over (passing of the baton) and this pre stress is then sustained by an accelerating inner core pivot rotation putting pressure into BOTH shoulder sockets (TGM departure part 2) with a Form 1 lever (Force - fulcrum - weight) or (pivot - dual shoulder fulcrum - weight of arms, hands, club) and this is where Homer’s TGM completely dropped the ball… ignoring such a lever exists in the golf swing.

There is no doubt in my mind that this is the premier way to strike a golf ball… because it eliminates the majority of the timing from the golf swing… and offers optimal transfer of energy from the club into the golf ball for any length stroke.
Homer did get this part correct in TGM chapter 2… but never puts forth how to do it… and could not get there with hitting being right arm thrust, and the absence of a form 1 lever installed post impact.

A hitter embraces a pre stressed golf shaft… holding shaft flex to impact with the intention of holding it well past impact.
Hitters use force…

f=ma (force = mass x acceleration)

Hogan got it… Snead got it… Trevino got it…Peter Senior… O 'Grady, Greg Norman, Palmer… Player… De Vicenzo, Knudson, Tiger with his irons… there have been other greats of course…

So this is what I am teaching you guys to do… to hit, but to hit properly. We have to strengthen certain strange and unusual muscles, they must learn their movement path, and they must learn to fire in proper sequence. But once you get it… you own it… it becomes a learned pattern that can’t be unlearned easily. You can do it sleep walking… or what we call swing DNA.

I relate this to playing drums which I do also… once you learn independent limb motion… you have it… like riding a bike.
I can ride a unicycle also… learned that when I was 10… I can still do it 35 years later… zero practice in between.

hitting and swinging… are completely differing protocols for striking a golf ball…

Much of the arguments about the golf swing amongst the teaching profession would be solved if this difference were acknowledged and clearly understood… unfortunately it’s not… and I still feel for the most part, golf instruction is still in the dark ages…
despite all the developments in technology. The efforts have gone into trying to fix everything with the equipment which is beyond absurdity. Makes about as much sense as handing an artist a high tech paint brush that will magically enable them to paint like Van Gogh or sculpt like Michaelangelo. Only marketing can suggest such insanities.

165

Gerry,

I enjoyed your post about making your own course from the course that was already there. We used to do that also when we were kids… very free thinking.

The silliest thing to me is how with new ball and drivers going so far, they now have to create longer courses.

The best way to make a course long is play a shorter ball and club combo.

Twomasters and I played the historic Olympic Club a couple weeks ago with persimmons and vintage irons, and it played LONG!!
At 6900 yards, with the ocean mist in the air at sea level, damp and dense, we were pulling long irons out all day. 450 meant solid drive 250… leaving 200 yards into the green… so it was a 3 iron or kill a 4 iron with a draw to a left pin placement.

Why these events keep hacking out new tee boxes where they shouldn’t be, trying to squeeze extra yards into the course is silly.
The courses should play as they were originally designed, with proper bunker placement and shot shape requirements. At Olympic, it is so clear where the landing areas are from the tee, and how you are required to shape the shot to get there.
Moving the tees back, changes the shape and intention of the hole and it’s challenges. It’s so silly what has been going on.

Making all the classic gems obsolete for high end competition is absurd… especially given the fact that a lot of the courses that are in metropolitan areas simply don’t have the capacity to lengthen. It’s become all about parking access, and the ability to move the crowds around the course. Stadium golf…

not for me at least…

166

Lag - that last post was your best description yet of your ideas about hitting and swinging. You are correct, the hands must keep moving and resist the inevitable decel that must occur when the wrist cock angle opens up. It sets up a counter-force, through your Core Pivot Thrust, to keep the hands moving in their own little arc through impact. Timing of Whipcracking, the term we use in Balance Point, can be mastered to some degree, but probably never close to 100%. Keeping the arms Super-Connected to the chest, firing the Core muscles, gripping the ground with the feet, “Scissoring” the inner thigh muscles with inward pressure, inward Triangle pressure from the hands to the armpits on the Arms, and freezing the right arm angle around 25-45 degrees from p3 to just past impact are some of the keys to this kind of Body Hitting action. You are right, it is the superior way to hit a golf ball. Less timing. I call this a Spin Style golf swing. You could also say that in terms of golf swing mental mapping, the Swinger focuses on the clubhead speeding up and the Hitter focuses on the handle speeding up. Today I see Jonathon Byrd, Chad Campbell, Zach Johnson, and Trevor Immelman using this method.

This is one of the big areas where HK got it wrong. I like your definition a lot better, ie swinging vs. hitting. Homer apparently felt - like 99.9% of golfers - that he had to “do something” with his right arm angle releasing in the horizontal or target dimension, and when he emphasized that Intention and that Feel, gave it a name of course - Hitting. HK was all about naming and categorizing. His mistake was that he was often naming phantoms or “vapor trails” as you like to say or Illusions as I prefer. He was making a huge long list of mostly golf swing effects - and not enough of the real Causes.

When he focused on his left arm, he felt a sideways “swinging motion” and a pull. Upper arm from shoulder socket. When he focused on his right arm, same thing, but with a pushing orientation. I know because I made this exact same mistake in my own research about 20 years ago. In truth, the right arm angle can be used as a very secondary only power source to assist the main power source, the Pivot. And - most of that angle opening up is in the down and out dimensions, very little in the target or horizontal dimension. There is no independent, active left or right arm swinging motion in a good golf swing. Plenty of it though in a bad golf swing. In the good swing, the Core/Pivot at the top end is the Shoulder Girdle, the base of the Triangle. When the base moves, the two sides, the Arms, move with it. Very, very few amateur golfers have ever made even a single golf swing doing this, which is why when I write about, lecture about it and teach it, I get a lot of blank stares, kind of a "Huh? My book, The Arm Swing Ilusion, explains all of this in detail.

167

"There is no independent, active left or right arm swinging motion in a good golf swing. Plenty of it though in a bad golf swing. In the good swing, the Core/Pivot at the top end is the Shoulder Girdle, the base of the Triangle. When the base moves, the two sides, the Arms, move with it. Very, very few amateur golfers have ever made even a single golf swing doing this, which is why when I write about, lecture about it and teach it, I get a lot of blank stares, kind of a “Huh? My book, The Arm Swing Ilusion, explains all of this in detail.”

As an amateur (hcp 13 and on the way down) trying to come to terms with this concept (I am being coached, not by TGM), my current stage of learning is getting the stomach muscles much more involved in the takeaway - thus keeping the arms passive as far as possible. During the swing my lower half feels very coiled and the top half relaxed and the results are very pleasing (when I get it right that is!).

Is this a feeling common with your students or do you approach this another way?

168

Interesting discussion, as always. I think this fits in somewhat:

In 5 Lessons, I believe Hogan talks of restricting the hip turn on the back swing in the rubber band discussion (I don’t have it in front of me at the moment, or I’d quote the pages). Lag, I know you believe you don’t hit the ball with the backswing and many many different types have won big money. Nevertheless, I am curious about this concept because you talk of turning your hips as far as they can go so you can get even more shoulder turn (keeping in mind your notion that you want max torso rotation, minimum hand travel). How does Hogan’s concept fit in here (which seems like it pre-sets pivot lag) with the concepts of ABS?

169

Great posts Lag and BP
I was just reading the last few pages of this forum from its previous home where Loren was questioning Lag about the use of Post Impact Pivot thrust and how a post impact force affects impact. I personally think that to feel the pivot thrust hightst velocity post impact it must have started coming into play sometime before i.e impact. Or it may be related to the neuronal delay and or the discordance between the visual, auditory and proprioceptive sensations of clubhead location. But that is where I hit a mental block. BP can you please ponder on this as this may settle this issue. If that is done then the question will be out of the three which que is the best to concentrate on.

PS: I like BPs idea of “Spin Style Swing” as I believe we dont have to strive to fit everyting into Homer’s definitions of swinging and hitting. The TGM “Hitting” is retty well entrenched. Any other names suggestions???

170

Macs - yes, you are starting to Pivot Thrust around the point in the downswing when the left arm is parallel to the ground, then as your Left Wall of Resistance forms in the left leg, the inner thighs Scissor inwards, the hips slow down, the Core fires, then it slows, then the Shoulder Girdle fires, then slows as the energy flows through the wrist joint and out into the clubhead as the wrist cock angle opens. To keep this flow of CF and momentum from knocking you off balance and causing a dis-connection of the arms from the chest and a raising of the shaft plane angle, you need to keep firing the hips and Core, and this feels and happens to be more post-impact than pre-impact. Tough thing to describe in words, perhaps Lag can have a crack at it. The momentum feeding into the clubhead after impact will pull on your body but this method is adding to that energy by keeping the Core still active.

There is a decel of the Pivot segments, and then a rapid firing again after impact.

For average mid to high handicap golfers, I would not recommend ever focusing on the clubhead, in any of the three sensory channels. It tends to make one flinchy, and Ball Bound. Feel channel can work well of course, but then you are really feeling the lag pressure in your hands of the clubhead weight resisting the change in direction, ie inertia, so to be accurate, you are focusing on your hands, not the clubhead. When we try to focus on the clubhead, most golfers will use the visual channel, both external and internal, and this switches on the hand-eye coordination circuit, which is not a good thing. Better not to anticipate or think impact at all, for most of my students. Advanced players who have mastered a passive but alert mind and overcome the inevitable full swing yips, can use a Strike Image of seeing the blur of impact and/or Low Point, and get very good results. I will sometimes use that one myself.

171

Whiteman - when you do a proper Pivot, you will feel a lot of resistance in the lower body, but not relaxed muscles in the upper body. Your shoulder girdle should feel wound up tight, especially left Lat. If you arent feeling this, good chance you have pulled your arms into your body, collapsed your arm structure and lost your arm width. Keep stretching those arms away from you as you coil.

Macs - I use Hitting, Swinging, Throwing or Slinging, and Spinning as the four major Swing Styles. Not same as TGM Hitting and Swinging. I am not happy with the Swinging term, but can’t seem to come up with a better name. My definition has more to do with the Pivot, Tempo, body type and flexibility differences.

172

How can F=ma apply if the arms are accelerating,
where F is the resultant force acting on the body, m is the mass of the body or arms, and a is its acceleration.
what forces is action upon the mass the arms? or the body ?
The clubs is moving in the same direction as the arms , so how is there a force against the mass.
If F=ma applies
how is speed transferring from the arms to the club?
The arms have to decelerate so energy can be transferred to club and then to the ball.

Once motion begins, the human body is a closed system, there are no external forces applied to the system.
The body creates speed within the system… speed is past from one body segment to the next segment until it reaches the club( conservation of momentum)…
the muscles groups powers conservation of momentum.
Throw the golf club away for a second this applies tennis , baseball hitting, throwing a ball , movement patterns of the human body and how the human body creates speed and power generation… conservation of momentum applies. and the kinetic link is similar … (power generation process)
Kinetic link starts from the ground up, hips,upperbody,arms and club (bat or racket )

Baseball you hit the ball… tennis you hit the ball … conservation of momentum applies not f=ma , kinetic link applies… similar movement patterns the muscle groups power, the power generation process (kinetic link)

Dudes the human body is designed anatomically to move a certain way…there is a certain way the human body wants to naturally create speed…
Your GP will tell you this !!!

So what makes golf so special that we all believe the body moves differently , what cause we are in a pitched position… sorry still the same movement patterns. to the other sports and similar kinetic link…

Ahhh the next question so how do we train movement patterns in a golf swing … that’s easy… although we need to be tested to find out how our body moves and creates speed or the power generation process first… We all have different movement patterns issues etc
Then from the data you can build a training program to train your movement patterns. Then Happy Days… Happy Golfing

BPS … squeezing your thighs… how does this create ground forces… ???

173

Contact Bio.
C’mon man that is the only solution you have offered so far.

174

BP
Do you mind describing your four patterns.

175

Macs,
What do you want me to do… eye or video can’t measure… what ground forces your applying, hip speeds,upper body speeds, arms speeds are… or how your muscle groups are actively firing in each body segment … so how do I know what training to provide you…
Come on … give us a break…
What does a doctor do he provides a test and then provides a cure…
Even with my own golf swing I have to test myself … I have no clue to how my body is creating the power generation process(kinetic link) or if i am creating a kinetic link or not… my own swing went to the pack from doing training videos for exercises and programs which aren’t applicable to my movement patterns…

Would you like me to provide you with exercises by guessing, which will only make you worse cause they aren’t designed for you… Then i will be cursed by you…

Norman,Price, Els, Faldo,Floyd,Faxon and many others … they use to all get tested … their coaches didn’t know either so they got them tested…
Do you think these guys just worked on mechanics ??? come on…

Golf is a dynamics fluid motion… what drives the golf swing… what powers a golf swing… US!!!

176

Macs, as a student if Bio’s I can vouch that there is a very solid structure to HOW to train movement pattern issues. Not saying anyone else doesn’t mind you, just that I have found the system of measuring movement patterns and then applying progressive skills training to be extremely accurate and helpful. I have had a second screening after 3 months which noted great improvement in the areas of focus, namely I was all (fast) arms with an early release, now my arms have slowed down and my release much later. The main issue for me though is Bio has got me playing 18 holes without back pain through improved movement patterns, my stomach lining is all the happier without extra anti inflams I can tell you!

There are some other points too, he will be the first to say it doesn’t matter how well you strike the ball, you still have to chip and putt, that’s where you’ll cut the HC down. The other more relevant point here is his training is much in the mental attitude camp of Gerry and BP. There are no thoughts as to mechanics during action, you train movement patterns so they are how you move naturally, you don’t need to engage the conscious to act, you’ve trained you do. This is the hardest area for me to trust, I feel like I need to be actively responsible in a conscious way, but if I just step up and trust what I’ve trained I have the best chance of success. Anyhow, sorry for the “sales pitch” sounding post,

177

Stinkler - congrats on your progress working with Bio. Sounds like a really excellent method. Training away from the ball is the best way to acquire mastery.

Macs - tough to explain in an even a very long post. Three of my four styles can be found in The Laws of Golf book by Adams, Suttie and Tomasi. Highly recommended. There are some differences to be sure, from my understanding and theirs, but mostly minor ones. We also use the Accelerator device that measures shaft loading: ramp up or gentle continuous loading, single burst for Hitters and double burst for swingers and spinners.

Some models: Throwers/Slingers - young Nicklaus, J Miller, Lema, Colin M today. Hitters: Waldorf, Stadler, Craig Parry, Alan Doyle. Spinners: Hogan, Byrd, Zach J, Chad Campbell, Immelman. Swingers: Anthony Kim, Susanne Peterson, Anika, Tiger, most of the younger guys and gals on both tours.

Hybrids are not only possible, but common - up to a point, when the mis-match makes it impossible to hit quality shots consistently. Sergio uses a Thrower top of backswing, left arm above the TSP, and then the required independent arm drop, but from p3 he is a pure Spinner.

Length of backswing pivot and Finish positon, tempo, arm to chest angle, shaft plane, release point, pivot thrust type and trigger point are all important factors.

Whether the wrists are actively Thrown or passively pulled open is not a distinguishing element, since except for Spinning - where an active release is required as Lag has explained here so well - the other three Styles you can employ either one. Most LPGA pros use a Swinger style with passive wrist release and most PGA pros use the Swinge style with added some form of active hit with wrists and/or right arm triceps hammer hit or forearm roll hit. Most pro Hitters will use the active wrist release, but I have some senior students who are Hitters and who employ a passive wrists release.

Remember - my use of the words Swinger and Hitter are NOT at all in agreement with the TGM defintions of those two words. So for any TGM purists out there who are thinking of responding to this post with the usual TGM-biased crtitique, please read the preceding sentence again.

There will always be a blend of both longitudenal and radial acceleration forces in any golf swing, since we swing our bodies and shaft in three dimensions and release a wrist cock angle (L type or pressure on the top of the shaft) while simultaneously are pivot thrusting hard in a tight circle to the left, which creates pressure on the right side of the shaft (R type). The issue is how much of one vs the other are present, the ratio, that partly defines your Style. Lots of L - you are a Thrower, or a Swinger in Lag’s language. Lots of R - you are a Spinner, or a Hitter in Lag’s model. About even blend of both - a Swinger in the Balance Point model. Our Swinger style is pretty much right in the middle of the spectrum from the two extremes of Throwing and Spinning.

I never teach beginners, or mid to high handicappers the Throwing Style since it is very complex, lots of moving parts, hard on the spine and tough to stay in Balance. I only teach the Hitting style to golfers who are very inflexible. For most golfers I use the Swinger style as the model, but if they are really flexible with strong Cores and above average athletic ability, the Spin style. Although paradoxically, a lot of our Swinger drills are exagerration drills that are moving in the general direction of the Spin style. Spin Style could be argued is the simplest and thus most efficient Style, with Swinging a close second.

One could argue that the Edwin/S and T model might be a Fifth Style. Jury is still out on that one…

178

Thanks Bio and Stinkler for the reply
I know from Stinkler’s previous posts that Bios program is working for him and also know that Bio’s work requires a prescreening (which apparently is not possible in Western Canada where and Prot are).
What I dont get from Bio’s many posts is, what kind of swing does he aim to achieve with his students. Is it one pattern like Lag teaches his students or does he tailor a different swing pattern for each individual based on their screening body types. We have amply seen simillarities among great ball strikers over these pages. So did they all a particular inherent pattern of movment? Can that preferred pattern be molded into everyone or are we just wasting our time. If I were to be intrested in Bio’s method (if at all he could it) I will like some insight into these questions.
I remember a few months ago Bio did post something on kinetic sequence something like the hips accelerate then decelerate then the shoulder acc. then decelate then the hands do the same cycle. This is in keeping with the majority of current teachers like Peter Kostis (CBS swing vision guy). I personally believe in Lag’s two stage hip pivot motion best demonstrated by Fred Austair’s Tap Dance golf swing. thoughts???.

179

Bio thanks for the detailed reply. Makes sense. The only pattern I did not understand is your version of Hitters. The majority of good bal strikers being in the “Swinging” or “spinning” categories and their resemblances explains a lot.
Last quesion for now anyway, what body types will or will not be suitable for Lag’s “spinning” type golf swing.

180

Macs - best to ask Lag that question as I am sure his Body Hitting style has some differences to my Spin style. They appear to be very close, but in terms of the nitty gritty of working with a student trying to learn the pattern, there may be things about his model that I simply do not know. To literally achieve my Spin style, you need above average flexibility, Core strength and reflexes (“fast hands”). Helps if you have long arms, with the frozen right arm angle thing. You cant have any lower back pain or injury either. And you must be comfortable with a relatively fast overall swing tempo. But - for our Swinging students, we want their Intentions to be along the lines that Lag has described, even if they lack the qualities I mentioned that would produce the literal Spin styie.