Let's Talk Lag's Golf Machine

I would like to find out the answer to that riddle Gerry…so I will try by process of elimination. I will tell you all I know about wheels and spinning things. And if I hit on the right one I hope you will tell us, and if not, then we will have eliminated some things. I realize that you like this method of teaching( making the student find the answer), but remember, if Einstein had not explained the Theory of Relativity, we may still be without it. Sometimes to stand on the shoulders of giants, we need a boost to get up there!!
What I have seen and thought about in regards to wheels and such:
1 A wheel or car tire or centrifuge or ceiling fan will spin more efficiently if it is in perfect balance, and it doesn’t take much weight to get it off balance. In the case of a centrifuge, it will make a terrific racket when out of balance, but will be put in balance by a few drops of liquid. Same holds for a tire or ceiling fan. Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan were very likely in near perfect balance. Slow motion video from their back view shows a very tight spin with no wobble. I can recall one on a Slicefixer video on utube that has a good shot of Hogan from behind( facing target line)…perfect movement around a fixed axis.
2 For a given weight, the rim will spin faster the closer it is to the center. The spinning skater with arms in close is the example.So a golfer can turn faster by keeping the weight of the club and arms as close to the center axis as possible for as long as possible. Jones and Hogan must have done this.
3 The rim will always keep in sync with a spoke, or a point near the center…because the spokes do not allow slack.
4 But while they are in sync, the rim moves faster than the center. The faster the center spins or accelerates, the faster the corresponding point on the rim will spin and accelerate…only more so, as the speed and acceleration will be multiplied.
5 Spinning objects like gyroscopes balance themselves on a point. This allows a skater to spin on the tip of her skate, and people to ride a bicycle. spinning may improve a golfers balance as he spins.
6 Wheels are balanced, in that there is an equal mass of rim located 180 degrees from each point on the rim. Likewise, there are points in a golfer, located somewhere inside but behind his center of rotation, that balances his arms and clubhead. We hear about the arms and clubhead all the time, but not about their counterbalance and their location, and their role in creating the spin.
7 I have seen a replica spear Native American Indians used to make with a flail and a movable weight( a hollow rock on the shaft), that facilitated throwing longer distances. Keeping the clubhead up and in and then allowing the clubhead to drop as it approaches the ball mimics this action.
8 The length, weight , and distribution of weight of the club must play a role, such that there is an individual ideal for a golfer, that will make teh spinning as efficient as can be. This may explain how a golfer ocassionally will find a "magic"club.

So my best guess from all this is that Jones’ and Hogan’s action was one of spinning in perfect balance( no axis movement), with arms. hands, club in as close as possible for as long as possible, with increasing acceleration, with the weight of the clubhead dropping late. Their clubs were ideally suited for each of them.
eagle

Gerry,
I wasn’t bashing your ideas whatsoever…- it was directed at all these other scientific ideas about such and such and so and so happening with cryptic diagrams and theories beyond the realms of belief.

I think I mentioned in a earlier post about how I liked your idea of trying to simplify things when others turned them upside down and around corners and made something reasonably simple an absolute task and way too complicated for the 1 second the club is moving in the swing

this thread has lost the plot a bit the past 10 pages with all the inner arguing- hopefully someone can set it straight again- NOT ME. I am out. Golf was never meant to be made so hard and dissected as much as I have read here. If any good player in time ever thought about 1% of this stuff they wouldn’t get off the first tee.
When I was playing well and winning or doing well- guess how many thoughts I had-------- ZERO.
When my game was struggling a bit at times I had many more thoughts than zero…which gets back to what I said all along…simple is better and will bring about a quieter mind and body and a better game

eagle…
You are not on the spot yet but very well done in what you have put forward so far, so much of it shows superb insight but keep going because the satisfaction and the confidence that you will gain from exercises like this one will enhance your own view of self (perhaps) beyond your belief.
I will most certainly give the answer, there are no tricks, magic or gimmicks in what I do, I’m only inviting anyone who wishes to genuinely join in, to do so.
I repeat, pay due heed to what was written about Bobby Jones.
Thanks for your participation and for ahving a little fun.
Gerry

Gerry,
Is regarding the parameters of the wagonwheel?
Such as the legnth, weight, balance, and weight distribution of the shaft(spoke or part of spoke), and how such parameters or characteristics affect the functionality of the ‘wheel’?
just guessing,
Aussie Mick.

twomasters…

Gerry,
I wasn’t bashing your ideas whatsoever…- it was directed at all these other scientific ideas about such and such and so and so happening with cryptic diagrams and theories beyond the realms of belief.

twomasters…I didn’t take it personally and you should not take my response personally either. I happen to agree with you and I applaud the fact that you had the guts to say what you thought. My point was simple; bitching and whinging by anyone, about anything, rarely creates change for the better, in any system of beliefs, be it political, cultural, racial, religious or anything else, including golf swing theories. If someone can create an unrest in the common herd of golfdom sufficient that, eventually, all golfers, everywhere, begin to question the bullshit and the hocus-pocus, as you so aptly put it, change might happen. But change cannot happen until enough golfers fan the flames and the pot starts to simmer. If you are serious about wanting change for the betterment of all who play the game and all who want to play it, just fan the flames and heat the pot!!
Good to know you
Gerry.

Two Masters,
couldn’t agree more is keeping ball striking as simple as possible.
Dynamics love the word and wish we all looked at this very strongly of coaching for the future… Teach golf using dynamics…
Your on the money about playing golf with no thoughts… People over load when I say to them do our training and just swing the club…
We have trained your body just go out there no thoughts and have fun… have trust in yourself and your training…
Most people we have issues with is they think to much instead of letting go and swinging the club and let the training kick in naturally for you…

One thing which annoys me is the perception of biomechanics yeah sure there is a complex side with theory and technology …
although this isn’t the golfers concerns to know any of this that is our job…
What we do is measure a client and then explain in layman terms their movement patterns issues…
Then we give them dynamic training and other training to train the body with out thinking…
When they play golf the movement patterns are second nature and happens naturally for them… They can play golf with out thinking…
Biomechanics is as simple process and not very complicated at all… get tested and all the golfer needs to do is the training with no thought…

Two Masters … everyone is so caught up in the bullshit of theory… debating and arguing over theories and what does this solve or achieve nothing…
Wouldn’t it be nice just to focus on ways of training golfers to improve…
This is where we are at we don’t care what people say or think about our theories… we understand how the body function and moves and know how to train the body motion… Results speak louder than words…
We are at the point where we are everyday researching and testing more and more simpler ways and more effective ways to train athletes…
We leave everyone else to whilst they are trying to re invent the wheel and arguing… we moving forwarding focusing on how to improve athletes and enhance their performance…

Yeah that’s what I was alluding to. ALL those great players of yesteryear worked out terrific swing dynamics on their own accord. They did it by trial and error. Beating balls. Playing rounds. Hitting shots. They didn’t do it by drawing lines on a computer screen and getting technical about everything.
I know when I was growing up I went to the range. I dropped balls in pine needles- on hardpan- in rough- behind trees- in front of trees. I would drop balls down and hit over trees and under trees and around trees.
I hit ball after ball from these positions working out what I HAD to do or what I COULD do to get the maximum result from these predicaments.
The problem we see today is way too much theory. Way too much breaking down of everything hoping to find a quick fix. Everyone ends up listening to every piece of information they can gather up and by the end of it all they have 15 swing theories with 40 different swing thoughts that themselves all have an a), b) and c) mode to them as well. So they all have 185 swing thoughts going around in their head somewhere that gives them absolutely no chance of functioning.
I worked out MYSELF how the ball reacted. What I had to do. Half of it I probably couldn’t explain- BUT I knew how to do it.
Someone once asked me how I hit a low driver from the tee into the wind once after I had blistered this low shot…my answer? I DON"T THINK OF ANYTHING EXCEPT that I want to hit the ball LOW. I just let my natural feel and instinct and practice sessions kick in and let it happen.
I know that may sound like BS to many- BUT- it isn’t… It is simple logical golf. I found my way to do it. I found what worked and just let it flow. I worked out I could hit the ball in a variety of different flights by totally different ideas…I may have held my hands and blocked them through on one- I may have changed ball position on one to draw or fade- I may have leaned into one…I found a whole array of shots that I could do based on how I felt and what the shot called for and did it all based on my rules- no-one else’s
Then of course tuition came into my game and I got bogged down in all the techno jargon and I got so worried about positions and looking ‘correct’ that I lost half my ability to react and my natural instincts to play couldn’t shine through anymore.
Golf is probably the hardest game in the world. There is zero ball reaction time. The thing just sits there on the ground and taunts you into doing stupid things. But there are NO quick fixes. It takes dilligence and work. It takes an understanding of what makes YOU tick…not what works for Tiger Woods or for Vijay Singh. We all have our own methods that need to shine through…
AND that’s what I love about Lag’s teaching. It promotes the correct muscle activity to provide the correct dynamics of a swing to make the ball sing- YET it also provides us with room to let our own individuality shine through in the process.

  1. A balance must exist between the hub of the wheel and the rim. That balance can be altered depending on the role to be filled by the wheel itself. (i.e. moving the center of gravity to the hub or toward the rim)

Captain Chaos

One and All

Just another story that occurred to me that echos Two’s statement about Lag’s approach. In high school I was an innately very good high jumper. Unlike learning to play defense in basketball, high jumping came to me in an easy natural way. Also, just like the change from persimmon to metal, I went from sawdust to the big old cushion we see today. The one thing I didn’t get to do, however, was go from the old stuff (western roll then dive straddle) to the amazing Fosbury flop. By the time he came around, I was in another part of the world. Not jumping just jumpy.

My track coach knew nothing of high jump technique, so (pre inter or any kind of net) I got all I knew from the few books that existed on the subject. We were the Catholic basketball school in LA, across town was the Catholic football and track school. They were a great pipeline for the west coast USC. My sophomore year I beat both their young high jumpers easily. My junior year, I beat them, but just by an inch. My senior year, they both beat me (in the So Cal finals) by an inch. They had great coaching, and I had just me. They had the Bio machine, I just heard about how great it was.

Their coaches honed their skills, and they got better than me. If I had even mediocre teaching, I might have tied them my senior year - the difference being just that inch. After I cruised past fifty, I got a wild hair to enter the Senior Olympics in said high jump. Due to being tossed out, I only jumped for one year in college. Since most high jumpers destroy their bodies by the time their thirty, I figured since most of the competition was out of commision - why not? The real reason, though, was that I wanted to get to try the Fosbury flop. Instead of taking off on your left foot, and throwing your right leg over the bar, Fosbury shocked the high jump world by going off his right foot, and going over the bar on his back with legs trailing. He flipped it 180. I had always heard it was worth another 4 or 5 inches because of the speed you could carry into your plant.

The high jumper at our local U, being a broke athlete, was easy to persuade to trade Fosbury for cash. I had to go to the state meet to qualify for the Olympics, and low and behold that Fosbury stuff was all that it was cracked up to be. With a few weeks of practice I was jumping 5 inches over the qualifying height. Then came my last practice jump before I would leave the next day for the state meet, I found out what the groin muscle was all about. I planted my right foot, and instead of springing up I just continued to go down. I never got around to trying again, but hey, I got to Fosbury.

The point of all this is – Lag is our Fosbury. We are not here to have our bodies polished for the same old action. We are here to learn a revolutionary approach. The polishers might give us one inch, Lag will give us five. Just like Fosbury he is turning the golf world on its ear. May the Lagbag and his very understandable equation, free us all.

Flop

To me, a lot of this really meshes and is not two opposite things. Harvey Penick taught both Tom Kite and Ben Crenshaw…and they both went on to be great champions. We are told that Kite loved the range and theory, Crenshaw just needed to play. Both worked. Percy Boomer,in his great book On Learning Golf, noted the difference between a NATURAL golfer like his brother Aubrey( who finished second to Bobby Jones at St. Andrews)and himself…Boomer said of himself that everything he had ever done in golf he had to LEARN to do. By HAVING to struggle, it must have benefited him as a teacher, as he enumerates plenty of international champions he taught. He does promote proper FEELING, and REMEMBERED feeling as the pathway to better and consistent golf. ( not necessarily scientific knowledge).

Understanding the science is not necessary…plenty of people beat me but don’t know why or how. So I am faithfully doing my drills, hoping to build the proper remembered technique and feelings. But I also hold to the hope and possibility that there may be some truth that will lead to the proper thoughts and feelings that will aid my actions and thus my ballstriking and scoring. They are called Lightbulbs on this forum. …for me things like understanding and seeing the 4:30 line, understanding why a flat swing can reduce slices and hooks( just learned that today!), learning why intentions are so important, why the ball knows the difference between acceleration and velocity, learning the wrists can be ACTIVE motors, and being given permission to USE them, …with instructions how. Learning that the Flat Left Wrist is just a vapor trail of proper feelings and pressures. Learning that TGM is not infallible. All this and more I have picked up in a few weeks, and I have been reading about this game for years. But for me, it has been BOTH mental understanding and physical doing. I suspect only the drills are necessary, and I am still a beginner with a long way to go, but the lightbulbs and the drills seem to go hand in hand. I like them both.

Lag is our Fosbury!!! I’m not going to pull a groin muscle doing the drills then, am I?! :wink:

Captain Chaos

Cappin’

Just don’t squeeze too hard on your mod 2’s, unless you tape up first. Those ground bubble forces can be mean mothas. It took me three months to get over that pull. I’d think I was finally all better, then reach down for something and have that puppy snag me. Over the years I think I’ve pulled or twisted every muscle I got (except for the brain - I never overuse that one). Groin — it even sounds bad. Just change one letter you got groan.

Flop

“Either today’s hype and bullshit about golf clubs and golf shafts is exposed by that or Bobby Jones must have been super human. Or was it something else that also ties in with the hidden quality in the wagon wheel?”
“There is a hidden factor in the illustration that, as far as I have been able to determine, nobody else has identified. If you can find what it is it will lead you to a place, and an understanding, that may change your entire concept of much that you believe about the golf swing.”

Gerry, might it be regarding the fact that wagon wheels are made of wood, allowing some ‘give’ when the wheel is riding over rough or uneven terrain? This ‘give’ might relate to the constant flex in the shaft of the great players as they turn through the ball?
Just guessing. Am keen to know the answer to the riddle.
Aussie Mick.

I imagine it’s got something to do with a more even distribution of weight. Swinging a golf club is analogous to trying to use a whip the wrong way around. Redistributing the weight to bring some up near the grip, or at least more evenly throughout the shaft, would make it easier to maintain a more constant hand acceleration during maximum clubhead acceleration.

Gerry, more guesses now, and these may not be correct physics:
1 since Jones’ shaft weighed several times that of today’s typical shaft, that weight and distribution may have promoted the delayed release( more weight to resist the change in movement down), with the energy contained longer on the downswing, then released with more speed and acceleration. Similar somewhat to containing your middle finger with your thumb if you want to flick someone on the nose…hurts more with containment.( example from Bertholy book)
2 with the shaft as the spoke, the center of it’s orbit is not the butt of the club, but rather a point between the hands. The increased weighting of the shaft and it’s distribution facilitate the hands working in opposition to each other around this point to square the clubhead. The mor eweight at the butt, the easier this is. The hands slow even more than with a light shaft, causing the clubhead to move faster( conservation of angular momentum). The butt of the shaft actually moves away from the target, back to the golfer, possibly even backwards like the opposite(other side of center) spoke on a wheel. A video regarding a baseball bat posted by Papi shows this.
3 the hickory shaft has more flex, but the clubhead catches up at impact. This is an additional source of speed and acceleration.
4 There is a rotation of the spoke, which might add more energy to the hit.
eagle

also, the FEELING Jones gives of his swing is interesting. I cannot quote exactly, but it went something like this:
1 he felt as if he was swinging a weight on a weightless string…this is interesting because,in fact, the shaft weighed MORE than a modern shaft.
2 in regards to rate …he likened the downswing to pouring milk from a pitcher…tilt and pour carefully and slowly at first , with a steady acceleration.

I would think these feelings are very important…
eagle

Gerry,

Could this US Patent (4,128,242) by Vance Elkins, Jr. filed in 1978 have any bearing on the wagon wheel discussion?

The patent has reached it’s 20 year limit but I doubt any club makers are using this technology, since craftsmanship and club manufacturing profits don’t seem to mix.

The following is my synopsis:

To assemble clubs optimally, three formulas need to be used. They are:

  1. Total weight of all the clubs components,

  2. First Moment of Inertia (1st moi), and the

  3. Second Moment of Inertia (2nd moi).

  4. Total Weight: (The total mass is equal to the sum of incremental masses added together).
    This makes every club in your bag have the same weight and with your eyes closed, holding any one of these clubs at its center of gravity, you would not be able to tell what #'s stamped on the head.

  5. 1st moi: (The first moment of inertia about the wrist cock axis is equal to the sum of incremental distances times masses from that axis).
    This makes every club in your bag have the center of gravity the same measured distance from the butt end of the shaft and when you hold them at address, they will all have the same feel.

  6. 2nd moi: (The second moment of inertia about the wrist cock axis is equal to the sum of the incremental distances squared times the masses from the axis).
    This means that every club in your bag will require the same amount of torque to achieve a specified clubhead speed and will have the same swing weight feel.

I’m guessing this is why Bobby Jones was able to swing his much heaver driver as fast if not faster that the average tour pro today.

Is this what the wagon wheel reveals?

Regards,
Wabisabi

eagle, wabisabi, et al
Sorry that the following is lengthy, I have tried to keep it compact but there is a lot to cover and it is pretty complex. For those with higher education or engineering type backgrounds remember that you are, by far, the minority here and this is written so that the majority might find it easy to deal with. Had I been writing for you minority, I would have written ti quite differently.
This is not te be considered as a golf swing theory, tip, or the like, just an explanation of how and why some things happen

Here is the first part of the riddle, the Bobby Jones 113.2 mph clubhead speed dilemma as compared with swing speeds of today, with Tiger Woods @ 119mph clubhead speed.
 As previously stated Bobby's driver specs were;

dead weight 387gms
shaft weight 207grams.
Subtract shaft weight from deadweight = 180grams
At this point I have an area of uncertainty. In all modern golf club assemblies the weight of the head, shaft and grip are considered separately and I have never seen anything to the contrary. I have checked in every possible way to clarify this further but cannot find any reliable information. The problem is; in the days of hickory shafts and Bobby Jones’ driver, was the 207grams inclusive of, or in additional to, the weight of any and all whippings and grip materials. Did it weigh 207grams all up or did it weight 207gms plus the weight of all extras attached to it.
If anyone can clarify that point I would be most appreciative.
However, it really doesn’t change the fundamental concept, either way, it merely adds a minor complication to be absolutely specific.
Let’s accept the first scenario.
The shaft was fitted with the grip of the day which was (almost certainly) made of oiled leather strap with a tar paper or cloth underlay. There was considerable whipping (binding) on his driver. I think that we could safely assume that it should weigh a minimum of (say) 30grams.
180gms - 30gms = 150gms.
By elimination we find that his head weight was = 150grams.
Second scenario; If the 207grams is inclusive of the ‘extras’ then we have a shaft weight of 207grams and a head weight of 180grams on a shaft length of 43 3/16”
Steel and composite fiber shafts are tubular in construction and usually have a balance point pretty close to the center of the shaft.
Conversely, hickory is a solid, straight grained timber mass. Cut to make golf shafts it’s tapered and considerable larger in diameter at the butt end half length than it is at the tip end half of the shaft. The balance point of the hickory shaft is considerably closer to the butt extremity than it is to the head.
The weight of today’s composite ‘wonder shafts’ is, on average, around 60 grams. The average head weight seems to be in excess of 200grams by 5 to 10gms.
205 + 60 + 50 (grip)= 315gms which represents a ‘ball park’ figure for the average dead weight of the modern driver.
You cannot have too low a dead weight as the player cannot then ‘feel’ the golf club. Also the shaft is now so absurdly light that weight must be allocated to the head to maintain swingweights, as well as deadweights.
Shaft lengths for drivers are no longer 43’’, as they used to be. The standard now is 45’’.
In the swingweight system one inch in length has a value of approximately 6 swingweight (SW) points. Additionally, a half inch in length difference is compensated for by 7grams in weight. A modern five iron is a half inch longer than a six iron so the six iron head is 7 grams heavier to bring both to the same swingweight value (say D1).
In comparisons therefore between Bobby Jones and the average modern tour pro we might find a 2’’ difference in driver length and that’s 12 SW points. Two inches would also indicate 1/2’’ = 7grams and 2’’ = 4 x 7grams which = 28grams . Obviously you need to know exactly how to apportion and allocate all of these factors but they are critical.
In summary at this point, Bobby Jones was certainly swinging a driver with a deadweight that was about 50 to 60grams heavier than current drivers. But he had a shaft that weighed about three times the weight of a modern composite fiber shaft, constructed of SOLID MASS. After a length of parallel section under the grip, quite considerable tapering took place from his end, the butt end. It then continued to the tip end and that shaft was married to a head that was either about 25-30grams lighter or even 55-60 grams lighter. Plus the shaft was 2’’ shorter.
The masses that Jones swung were considerable closer to him than the masses are to the modern tour pro. The greater a mass/ weight is and the further it lies from the energy that accelerates it, the greater the amount of energy that must be provided/ expended to maintain the value of the acceleration.
Let’s change this particular wagon wheel about a bit and see what happens. In this experiment the wheel always remains the same weight, overall.
First…let’s reinvent the spokes. Here we are going to take weight from the RIM and move that weight up to the top half of the spokes. Obviously, the more weight we shift from the RIM and the closer we fix it to the center, the greater the acceleration potential, from a given energy source.
Let’s now go the other way. We shift every gram we can out of the spokes and place it in the RIM. The more we shift, the more energy we are going to need to maintain the same acceleration potentials. This is the flywheel effect.


Second part of the answer.
Consider the principle of the flail.
Take two lengths of material at (say) 44’’ long that are equal in all weight and mass distribution factors. Both measure the same and weigh the same and the distribution of mass/ weight is constant.
Leave length A as it is. Cut length B into two equal parts and hinge them in a theoretical manner so that the hinge can be set and fixed at a given angle or it can be a free hinge.
First…fold B to zero angle at the hinge so that both (lever) arms lie parallel and touching. (This is theoretical so ignore grips and comfort levels). Obviously you have placed half of the original mass closer, by proportions, to the energy at the center.
Now swing it as a free hinge in the flail principle. As the angle commences to open, the lower arm moves outwards tangentially to the upper arm. It’s moving away from the direction that the primary or top arm is moving in. By doing so it must create DRAG on the upper or primary arm, causing deceleration of that arm.
Now take the other theoretical length, Part A. It has the bottom half in line with the top half. Therefore the bottom section requires proportionally greater energy to accelerate it than the top half does. And not to be overlooked either, it has a surface that must pass through atmosphere and it will lose potential acceleration through friction by having to do so. Conversely B will have its lower half ‘end on’ to its earlier line of travel and will be effected much less by friction.
Both Jones and Hogan, especially Hogan, consciously held or retained the angle between the left arm and the shaft for far longer than most. Would this not encourage all of the ‘good things’ mentioned above?
If one can get the butt end past the ball faster then would this not also allow the probability that the head end can get to and through the ball faster too?
This is not about Radial Accelerations of the head end so I’m not entering into that. This is enough, for the time being.
There is an even further factor and that is the ‘feel’ effect that it has on the persona swinging it.

 Thanks to all who gave it some thought, I hope the experience and the experiment helps you. I also hope that it points you in a direction where you get to enjoy thinking for yourselves.

Regards
Gerry.
Copyright(c) all rights reserved. Gerry Hogan December 2009.

Woohoo, I was on the right track with the first part! See, I did learn a little bit, Gerry. :wink:

Captain Chaos

Gerry,
Thanks for sharing. While progress is made (penicillin mentioned earlier by you), I never cease to be amazed by how what we do today( in many areas of life), is thought to be new and improved, only later to be shown to be not better , or even harmful as compared to previous methods.
By the way, in regards to penicillin, I heard a story once, I think it is accurate, that Dr. Fleming had been called to see a man with a leg wound years prior to his penicillin discovery. The injured man’s wife ( or mother) had wrapped a molded piece of bread on the wound, and told the inquiring Dr. Fleming it was “to help it heal” or “prevent infection”. One wonders how often we see helpful things, or DON’T see them, as we go our way.
That’s one of my reasons for joining this group and enrollling in Lag’s class. I know there’s a bunch I don’t see…but can be pointed put to me and make a lightbulb turn on. Just had that happen last night on module 2!
eagle