Lee Trevino

trevino4.jpg

Love the Trevino move…

Me too. I started studying Trevino on Homer Kelley’s recommendation. Trevino helped me understand 1F a lot better. Lag, is “cutting left” still tracing the plane line? I find that in order to stay on plane it feels left big time. What do you think of Trevino’s turned left hand as a “post-it” reminder to preserve as much right elbow bend to slow the rate of the #3Acc roll? Do you think Duval employed the same device? I have avoided a turned left hand like the plague for a long time, but it does provide an interesting benefit.

before we get into a long TGM debate about swing planes… tracing them with flashlights and so forth…

How did you get to Trevino from Homer? and what is your involvement with TGM? Who have you worked with? and you a TGM AI and so forth …

Let me know your thoughts on 1F and how you relate that to Trevino…

thanks…

You wrote-: “What do you think of Trevino’s turned left hand as a “post-it” reminder to preserve as much right elbow bend to slow the rate of the #3Acc roll?”

On what basis do you believe that maintaining a bent right elbow through impact affects the degree of PA#3 roll?

I believe that PA#3 roll occurs pre-impact and that the amount of PA#3-roll depends on the degree of accumulator #3 angle that a golfer has at address/impact. The shallower the clubshaft at impact (and the greater the angle between the straight left arm and the clubshaft), the greater the amount of PA#3 roll into impact - irrespective of whether the right elbow is significantly bent at impact (or not). PA#3 roll ends when the flat left wrist is vertical at impact.

Regarding post-impact roll (which is not, by definition, a part of PA#3 roll) - it depends on whether a golfer uses horizontal hinging or angled hinging. Lee Trevino was a hitter, and he used angled hinging.

Jeff.

Lag,

1F - Homer asks the question “Left, or right” right? I am talking about the unreliability of variations in the right elbow. As you have mentioned numerous times right arm participation is a key concept. I got to Trevino through Homer Kelley because apprarently Homer liked how much “down” Trevino employed i.e. “needed help to get the club out of the ground etc.” Although Trevino is viewed as a “hitter” in both your protocol as well as TGM’s, I studied how his right arm participates. I made reference to his turned left hand being an interesting thing because if he “fired” his right arm early he would have no doubt hit it left of left. I also added that what a lot of the pictures you post and reference show a great deal of right elbow bend at impact. I casually called that “insurance” in that players that seem to have the frozen right arm you allude to are able to keep the face of the club…stable e.g. Jim Furyk. My only credentials as far as TGM is concerned is a sincere attempt to understand its prinicples and concepts over the last three years. I have no hidden agenda. I have “mocked” the idea of a 5th accumulator…my first reaction to something I do not yet understand. :blush:

May I ask at what point the right elbow is allowed to straighten? I get that we are restraining the urge to allow CF to have its way…do we let it go at some point?..past impact? My question relating to “cutting left” is not a ruse posing as a trap! In my own experimentation I found on-plane motion on the elbow plane to feel as though it is “cutting left” Only a blind person would not see how low the shaft tends to exit on the follow through of many great ball strikers, as opposed to the detached arms look of others. My question was is cutting left on plane or off plane…assuming the elbow plane?

Jeff,

I believe that the straightening elbow has a lot to do with the #3Acc. As the elbow straighten the #3Acc start to roll, not so?

Jeff,

What I was referring to is found in 6-B-1-0. THE FIRST POWER ACCUMULATOR. Active or passive, the straightening Right Elbow with its Paddlewheel action, powers, guides and regulatesthe #3 Accumulator Motion but not the actual Clubface aligning.
Sorry to quote the book!

For one,

I don’t buy into the left or right side only option… that you are either hitting by pushing or swinging by pulling.

You absolutely can push and pull at the same time.

If this were not the case, then you would be able to hit the golf ball just as far with one arm off the club. I have never seen anyone that can (close, but not as good)

We put our left hand on the target side of the club, and we put our right hand behind the club… for one very good reason…
we use them both… and force is being applied in a pulling and pushing way.

Forces are certainly distributed differently between players… some more left, some more right sided… but a good golf swing uses both.

Again, I agree with Hogan… “I wish I had three right hands… and I hit just as hard with the left hand”

It’s right there… and although many like to question the man regarding this… I agree with his statements.

I very much see this with Trevino also…

As far as cutting it left…

Cutting it left is actually where the swing plane is… if you are actually interested on being on plane.

Of all the endless talk in TGM about being on plane… I don’t see anyone really grounded in TGM swinging on plane.
They are all swinging out to right field, and moving into a post impact “parallel plane”.

All the students here that have progressed into module #4, know now exactly where their swing plane needs to be… there is no guesswork here. Very defining, and precise, and we are shown the golden pathway through impact.

This is what I see being taught on TGM ranges both then and now… and until people wake up to this fact… they will continue to struggle with their ball striking. Too much timing involved for 99.999% of the golfing population.

I see the ‘cutting it left’ idea as a maintaining of the internal acceleration of a circle. The alternative being a ceasing of the left side, effectively turning it into a speed bump in the road. And once the clubhead starts to be thrown, the left side has to slow down so it’s 2 for 1 in the bad column at that point(though that could be one of those chicken and egg situations) Regardless, this makes the swing a sort of a stop and flop action where the motor breaks down and the head flies of at it’s own will. I like the image of one of those big wheel locks on the hatch of a submarine, you’re definitely going to push and pull that at the same time to get it open. People thinking that that can’t be done in the golfswing are definitely selling themselves short.
One of the ironies of swinging it like this is that the harder you cut it left(though I’m not a huge fan of that phrase with it’s strong directional connotations), or accelerate internally, the faster it makes the clubhead move away from you, which is pretty cool. It obviously makes perfect physical sense, but it’s not the obvious way you’d see power production when you pick up a golf club- well, for a lucky few it is! Changing someone’s source of power is the essence of a swing change, and what makes it so difficult to truly make changes, non-cosmetic changes. We’ll always rely on our power source when it gets down to it. Swing DNA a genius way to describe it! It’s awfully difficult not to want to throw the clubhead at the ball/target in order to create power, but it’s really not the best way. It’s easy to learn how to play golf the hard way, but it’s hard to learn how to play golf the easy way. Golf irony # 365,453 and counting…

Bom makes a good point… you really have to hang on to the bad boy when you try and “stand on one” as you fight the head from pulling away. It can be a battle keeping that right arm from straightening too.

Not many instructors are telling students they’re not strong enough to swing it well… might be bad for business.

robbo

So cutting left is on plane…I thought so. When I attempt to trace a straight plane line it feels like it is going left big time. My reference to 1F was just that for the longest time I pulled like a mofo with my left everything, in an attempt to keep the evil right arm out of it. Homer helped me understand the role of the right shoulder and elbow. Again watching Trevino, especially how his right elbow functions helped. I believe that golf is a two handed game, and that everything ought to be brought to impact.

I agree, if you put two hands on the club, it’s a two handed game. This stuff about it being only or push or a pull is complete garbage. One more than the other… only if you want to… but I push and pull at the same time… why?

because I can.

Yes, it’s really bad for business…!

Trevino could possibly also be the poster boy for ABS because all the elements are there, the flat entrance into the ball, the angled hinge through, etc. But I wanted to throw a question to Lag inspired by the thread started by Mandrin where Mandrin states that even if two swings look alike, there could be something differently going on inside that the eye cannot see.

If Trevino were asked to do the ABS Module 1 would he do it the same way with an active firing of the hands from P3 to impact? I think if Hogan was to do Module 1 he would do it the exact way as Lag has explained, an aggressive closing of the clubface. Trevino I’m not so convinced, I think his sensation would be holding on for dear life not to close the face fully. Different inner actions but same looking angles when you look at it frame by frame?

Trevino I’m not so convinced, I think his sensation would be holding on for dear life not to close the face fully. Different inner actions but same looking angles when you look at it frame by frame?

Totally. All great ball strikers get to a pretty similar place through impact but go through the entire process of hitting the shot with totally different mindsets and with different agendas. Hogan, Moe, Trevino, Seve, on and on with great strikers from any era. Who cares whether it’s a hitting or swinging protocol, I know the ball doesn’t. All the ball cares about is how the club is moving, how long can it be kept square to the target line and on what path and how shallow. You can’t give Lee Trevino, Moe Norman and Seve Ballesteros the same protocols and expect them to be themselves. This is where style, personality and psychological (genetic and background) come into play in regard to finding true playing potential.

who says a chicken wing can be bad for you?
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Amazing that you cannot see his right arm in frame one. Cutting left big time, huh?

I’ve always been drawn to Duval’s swing as a model. It’s the type of swing that me think of the idea to ‘always keep rotating’. His right shoulder is facing the target in his finish. He has that strong left hand grip that everyone seems to point out but i love the ‘roundness’ and smooth, effortless appearance he imparts to the swing. Lots of power as well. I saw him have noticeable balance issues the other day and his attitude is way too humble ( :neutral_face: ) compared to how he was in '99. He should get in better physical condition to improve his balance and play with more of that arrogance ( :imp: ) he used to have when he was dominant and posting 59 in competition.

Check out the little move he does with his right arm, elbow, hand at 1:07 when he’s describing getting the club back in the slot. It’s kind of cool to see his thoughts and what he’s trying to describe create that motion. Maybe it’s my obsession with figuring out the best way to lower my plane, but I’ve watched this clip so many times yet I just noticed it… I could listen to this guy all day too…

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trJTKg7RltY[/youtube]

Always liked Trevino alot…a true old time died in the wool range rat :laughing:

To me, his feet shuffing like that was his way to move the low point further up while visually, to him, make the ball still look like it’s in the middle of his stance. He does a similar move in putting…he, at the last moment, moves his L foot forward which forces him to accel more to find the new low point. Try it for putting…it’s impossible to decel IMHO :slight_smile: