Wow I thought I was argumentative…
I liked very much reading where the guy in the shop making minimum wage plus 2% commission asked the tour player to swing more upright because he was afraid he was gonna hit the pole on the swing analyzer. There’s about 7 levels of irony there, I wish there was a video of that, I’d pay a lot to see it. On an aside I never got just how good a track Wilshire CC was until playing it recently ‘old skool’. Unbelievable. If anyone gets the chance while in LA you gotta play it.
Go Low, I have no idea who you are…but I do know that you are highly opinionated and somewhat of a bully…you presumed to lecture me about Mike Austin probably without a fraction of the knowledge about Mike Austin that I have. I notice that you choose not to answer my reply. Then you have the temerity to discredit Lag and Two, who are Tour winners…
I try not to get involved in silly nonsense like this, but please remember you are a guest here…try not to abuse that privilege.
We welcome insightful and alternative views but you have overstepped the mark…
We love your work–wish you’d post more often!
I must have missed your post about Austin. Do you have some of the missing Austin golf notes? Don’t tell me - you have the Austin compound pivot secret don’t you?
Thanks for the directive about being a guest. I had no idea you were chosen to be in charge here. Silly nonsense…
Which shafts did you put in the irons Lag?
And what shop had new taper X1 wood shafts? Last I heard True Temper didn’t make them anymore. Just curious, I bought six dozen asst old stock last year and that’s enough for five lifetimes.
Not to inflame things here but in the discussion about flat v upright etc Geoff Ogilvy has some very interesting things to say in the first minute or so of this video (not the ad, the bit after that).
golf.com/golf/video/article/ … 67,00.html
Two, I wonder whether this has anything to do with the time you spent on the range with Geoff at The Lakes hitting the persimmon? I’d be curious, if you’re comfortable to divulge, whether you discussed club set-up and swing thoughts with Geoff that day?
Thanks for the video Rod…If it was filmed after Dec16 then I am taking credit because that’s exactly what we discussed about my clubs versus his clubs and how the swing would evolve from doing such a thing… he knew exactly what I was on about because he answered his own questions in the correct manner using forward thinking (unlike some around here 
)…, we talked shop on the irons and then we went on and swished the persimmon driver (my Macgregor Hogan that Lag loves) and talked about that also. he caned it on the range and saw he was onto something…maybe he is trying to bring it in full time. It certainly wouldn’t hurt him because as great a golfer as he is he does lose consistency and is streaky. I think he is moving in the right direction- now where my tip if he does well!!!
Stewart Cink’s clubs:
WEDGES
I use 54- and 60-degree Nike SV wedges. I get these adjusted even more upright than my irons (5½ degrees) because they’re the shortest clubs in my bag.
IRONS
My 5-iron through pitching wedge are Nike CCi Forged (True Temper Dynamic Gold X100 shafts). My upright lie angle isn’t because of my height, but because I’m more upright at impact.
LONG IRONS
To get a little more help, my 2- through 4-iron are Nike Pro Combo OS. All my irons are 4-degrees upright and a quarter-inch over length because I have long arms.
(I’m gonna regret this) AND?!?
Jack Nicklaus 5’ 11" (Winner of 18 majors) Plays a fade. Clubs: 2° upright
Go Low
We have better morals than banning people (we aren’t that other golf website)…If you actually read anything on the site you would see we are open arms to much suggestion and discussion
What we are all tired of is the blatant disregard you seem to hold for better players and teachers than yourself.
If you don’t get it that Hogan, Trevino, Nelson, Sanders, Player and many many others used flat to very flat lie angled clubs that built the swings they had then there is no hope for you. We base our thoughts on ball striking, not on being a good golfer…that’s why it is ADVANCED BALL STRIKING… not Give it a whack Ball Striking
We aren’t after the biggest forum…we have no advertising …we don’t sell spaces for money…what we do is give good solid based information to our students (our No.1 priority) and then to public forum members who like to discuss golf and all it’s attributes…If we had 6 people contributing- Fantastic…If we had 56- Fantastic…There is a private student forum that’s an entirely different world again where most students post their thoughts away from situations like you, so you have zero clue again as to what makes the forum and ABS tick
I still think you may have something to offer but not amongst all the good threads where you will turn loose and run a quiet story into an 18 page newsreel…
I probably should never have got on a launch monitor… seems such a thing brings about bad vibes. 
I am in no disagreement with Go Low regarding the fact there have been many fine players who have played off upright lie angles. However, I personally have played golf both ways, and based upon both personal hands on experience, and the historical references that support flatter lie angles combined with firmer shafts and heavier gear, I firmly believe the advantages far our weight the negatives if there are any negatives at all on anything that resembles a proper golf course.
These topics have been hashed over many times here on various threads, particularly the “flat vs upright” thread. Lots of stuff to ponder over there.
I certainly support active respectful discussion about all things golf, but I suggest that this thread stay somewhat on topic regarding golf clubs, how they are set up and what the advantages of flat or upright lie angles might be… or launch angles, RPM’s or smash factors, or other data those machines spit out.
Rod thanks for the video link 
“I love flat” is the quote.
Back in like '97 or '98 MacGregor had a cast wedge series out and I saw one in a shop in like Modesto or something and I kinda liked the shape of it even though it wasn’t forged. I called up and ordered a 54 and a 60 for myself at 35" and 5 flat. The guy on the other line in GA paused and finally asked, ‘How tall are you?’ I told him 6-1. He says ‘you mean 5 up, right?’ No says I, 5 flat. Then he asked if they are for me and I told him yes. 2 weeks later they arrive at my apt. and sure enough they’re 5 up. The packing slip shows the spec box the word flat crossed off replaced in pen with upright. I called up MacG and got a different guy who said that the original order had a typo that read 5 flat. I told him that was no typo and asked what I should do. Apologies for the mixup please return them and they’ll send the right spec clubs out. Another two weeks later I got another set again 5 up. One more call to GA. Now the story was they can’t bend them 5 flat because they’re cast and they again thought the order had to be wrong anyway. Now I’m annoyed and ask to talk to someone in a different dept. Any different dept, I don’t care which one. Talked to a really nice guy in the R&D dept and lied thru my teeth telling him the wedges were a present for my little brother who is 5-1. Mr R&D asked me to keep the ones I had for the trouble and suggested I try to heat & bend them if I wanted to and a flat pair would be 2nd day’d to me. I tried to bend the 54 and it snapped almost immediately, only the 3rd club I’d ever broken on a bender. Couple days later box #3 came with a handwritten note and this time when I measured they were 1 up. Strike no 3. No more calls I just gave them away the first chance I could. I hadn’t thought about those stupid wedges for probably 10 years, but this thread reminded me & gave me the exact same knot as my one and only experience with MacGregor Golf. Got a feeling I ain’t the only one either (Breathe Brian & Brad).
Good story LCD…funny how the industry has it pegged in one total direction
I have an isue with my PW. For some reason I don’t trust it. So it’s often either a GW or a 9 for me on that distance. I started to reflect on this the other day on the range and eventually I gripped down on the PW and had a go. And suddenly I flushed it. Why haven’t I thought about that before? And why haven’t I thought about gripping down on any iron when I want to produce a fade???
The last time I bought clubs I had them progressively flattened towards the 3 iron. But the PW was ordered with standard lies. I will never do that mistake again.
I’m not convinced that flat lies are the best for everybody though. I am leaning more and more towards that people should build a good stroke around whatever their natural tendencies are. As Bradley pointed out so well earlier in this thread, upright lies go hand in hand with steep impact shoulders. It also goes hand in hand with a hands-flipover swing type of stroke that we all try to get away from. But it also go hand in hand with a more pivot driven impact with lagging hands that are pulled by the shoulder turn. If I try to hit the ball extra hard with my pivot, my hands come in higher towards impact. I guess everyone has an optimum hands vs pivot lag through impact and that will have an influence of what the ideal lie angle is.
Go Low,
I really don’t think this is the right forum for you. The ideals here seem to upset you and the questions you pose over and over have been answered many times over on various pages here.
I certainly promote students to work into heavier flatter gear with firm shafts for many many reasons. They are good reasons that are supported by physics, geometry, biomechanics, and feel. I don’t require they do to work with me, but most do follow the recommendations of Twomasters because we are instructors that understand the value in doing so.
I have to teach something, and knowing what I know, I prefer to teach in a way the will stack the cards in favor of the student the best way possible so they can repeatably hit solid straight golf shots with good distance and help them move from golf swing to playing golf in as little time as possible. I am not teaching anything new.
Your arguments in favor of light upright gear, with bonanza size heads, and the modern move toward 7800 yard golf courses have a lot of support in popular golf culture. You love the complexity of the USGA rules that promote slow play and questionable rulings. You certainly have a right to your opinion… but I certainly don’t support those ideals for many reasons, and I know you don’t like a lot the ideals here. We can agree to disagree.
You have spent a lot of time screaming I’m wrong with great conviction, but your posts certainly lack substantiation.
This is compounded by your choice to remain secretive. Bom who posts here contacted me off the forum, and he is
a fine player who has won pro events on different continents. He’s the real deal. Twomasters needs no introduction. He’s gone head to head with the best and beat them in their prime. He played on the Presidents Cup team for heavens sake.
We would all be fools not to listen including myself.
I make no argument that great golf can’t be played off upright lighter gear… or that dumpy CF type arm throw releases can’t be timed with lots of practice or inherently wonderful swing rhythm and tempo. However, I will stand my ground in saying it makes consistent ball striking much more difficult day in and day out than it need be.
We will remain open to discussion. But since you are not a student or an ABS instructor, there is no way you are going to understand the details put forward conceptually, and watching youtube videos of module work tells nothing really because more often than not the video posts are not yet being performed correctly or they are in the process of fine tuning a number of very concise protocols that are going to be uniquely tailored to their specific disposition which is setting them up for the following protocols that are also very well directed and often countering those previous efforts through changes in biomechanical opposing forces.
My point is to remind you that your knowledge of ABS is not going to be on an equal stage to those who have been progressing through the course over months or years, and discussions about concepts and so forth are simply not going to be accurate without the understanding and hands on knowledge of someone who has actually experienced the directives within their own body. It’s like two people trying to communicate from different languages.
Other companies bad mouth each other all the time
Colgate whitens 25% better than Ipana
Titleist golf balls are softer and longer with better feel than Callaway
Cobra irons are 15% longer than taylor Made
Companies do that all the time, it’s not any different in any company philosophy…promote your company and bring opposition companies into the equation
I think the huge problem is GoLow that you don’t understand or get what we say here…we aren’t saying other methods don’t work…Lag had an entirely different action based on TGM … I had a CF swing growing up…then it got altered to more of a Leadbetter style set and rotate the big muscles
What we both learned was the easiest best range of motion to allow more consistent golf on a day to day basis without having to stand on the range all day long in the quest for the feel or timing of the swing…that’s what we point out.
We in NO way say that your obvious belief of the way to swing is incompetent or wrong or doesn’t work…what we say is that swing CAN work and DOES work…but not consistently and not without having to stand on a range beating balls all day long trying to find it.
If you look at the historical stats over time and see the premier ball strikers of the era… Trevino, Hogan, Peete, and such and such they had a method to their madness…they topped the stats year after year in ball striking categories…that’s why we talk about them more than Mickelson or Els or whomever you want to name Kuchar…If my life depended on it I would have Trevino peg a driver up for me as compared to matt Kuchar or Dustin Johnson… why, because e has the odds in his favour because he has a more reliable technique and process to his swing that won’t alter on a day to day basis
that’s what you don’t understand. we aren’t wanting our students to play well for one day or one week…we want to give them the absolute best chance to play to their true potential as often as possible… It isn’t that hard a concept to fathom, but you miss the boat on that and again this is clogging up a thread about trying to get through your wall of thinking that should be somewhere else.
So we base our thoughts, intentions and ideals on pure ball strikers, not guys that get hot once in a while and then chip and putt their heads off to be able to compete as golfers.
mate ya gotta stop using the ‘quote’ button…it makes the posts WAYYYY TTOOOO LONGGG