Against my better judgement I’m responding to this thread… again.
Since when did being a devout follower of a particular swing method (if that’s the term you want to use) a bad thing? Why are you so hell-bent on Lag and Two including/discussing/considering method(s) that they deem sub-optimum?
Is it your mission to ensure that advancedballstriking.com be an equal-opportunity golf forum, prepared to consider any and all techniques, whether the site owner believes in said techniques or not? Have you not read John’s reasoning for why the techinque he chooses to use and teach is superior? Do you believe that some poor unknowing visitor will drop in and be unfairly forced to read about an ABS approach only and be censured from learning about anything else?
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that the majority of the people who visit and participate here are sick and tired of the same old same old (except Styles perhaps ) and are eager to hear about these things called persimmon woods, heavy irons, and lie angles that are “not upright”.
As a student and member of this site I personally am tired of my “teacher(s)” wasting time discussing the same crap I can easily get from a number of other golf sites out there. I’ll gladly provide you with other websites that go into great detail about all that stuff if you need it.
I was going to simply ignore your posts GoLow, but when I finally realized that your objective seems to be to convert ABS into every other run-of-the-mill golf site that’s out there I decided I’d continue to participate. I’m actually realizing that Lag’s and Two’s responses to your posts (with all your intentions on keeping the ABS site “pure”) are proving to greatly illuminate the benefits of the ABS approach/philosophy with respect to golf’s status quo be it swing instruction, equipment, and/or rules.
I can’t believe I’m going to say this but… thank you GoLow! (Lag - you’re not really GL are you… perhaps using a plant to get your points across!!!)
GL…who’s bashing…no one. Are there discussions about body dynamics…sure!. There is much to say about heavier gear for beginners especially…and even for experts. One of the main reasons is how heavier gear activates the body in ways lighter gear simply will not do. Let’s go outside golf a spell into the world of boxing. Nearly all beginners…and even seasoned pros…use the heavy bag versus the speed bag as a primary tool. Why do you suppose this is?
gl,
You’ve said your piece time and again, I think it’s pretty clear where you stand. Those that know the game, know that you have a very limited, internet research based understanding of golf- it’s nothing new or fresh but for some reason you think it’s special. So be it. You’re now ruining this site for the frequent contributors and readers- if you’re not aware of that fact, you are now. You claim to want to help Lag, I don’t believe that for a second, but if you do, and you want to help him and ABS, then leave and never come back.
I’ll say it again, you’re ruining this place with what you’re doing. The game we all like to discuss is not one that you’re familiar with. The fact that you use Stewart Cink(who is an excellent golfer no doubt) as your example to defend your point, is the beginning, middle, and end of the story showing that you have no idea what you’re talking about. We’re talking about something else entirely, and you don’t have to like it or agree with it. In fact, I’m comforted to know that you have so many problems with how things are around here.
You’ve made your point, and Lag and Two have explained in far too much detail for a person of your limited understanding, where they’re coming from and how they want to run this place. You don’t buy it and that’s cool. If this was a physical club, with doors, tables, and faces, you’d never be let back in the door with how you’ve talked to people here. And if you persisted in coming back with your abuse, the cops would be called and you’d be escorted away. Unfortunately, the internet doesn’t have such things, so you get to be the bully and we all have to deal with the fallout.
Just go away.
You said; “There is much to say about heavier gear for beginners especially”… Let’s do talk about golf in that regard.
When a child takes up the game of golf you not only give them proper length clubs but also you give them lightweight and flexible shafted clubs to fit their strength. As their swing progresses and they also grow taller and stronger you give them longer shafts and start fine-tuning the firmness of the shafts and the weight of the clubs to match their swing technique (swing DNA) and strength to achieve the most desirable results. With regard to shaft weight and firmness (or static weight of the entire club) the same applies to both men and women beginners taking up the game. Have you not ever wondered why women’s clubs are lighter and usually have softer shafts? Beginner male golfers often think they need “stiff” shafts because they are strong when their swing techninque and golf muscle strength are not. They almost always suffer because they made the wrong choice. I do not know of any reputable teacher that gives beginner golfers heavy clubs with stiff or extra stiff and heavy shafts. If you want to increase golf muscle strength then swing a weighted club and/or play and practice a lot…but play and practice with clubs that fit your swing technique (swing DNA) and your abilities. The game is hard enough for beginners as it is…
I observed something that may contradict the “light clubs for kids” practice.
I have related this before. In 1995, I took one lesson from Ben Doyle when I was in California on a trip. He showed me a video of a scrawny kid…I guess it was like “here see, even a kid can do this.” My memory is the kid was way less than 10 years old, and was using a club that was either an adult or lady club, probably both too long and too heavy. But he did all the things Ben wanted…lots of lag, flat left wrist at impact, etc. I wondered at the time if he was “swinging correctly” BECAUSE of the equipment.
Anyway…that was a long time ago. Maybe someone else has seen that and can confirm.
Eagle,
Paulsy wrote a similar thing when teaching young kids in Canada… the kids using the older heavier cut down clubs were more advanced at swing technique and playing ability than the kids who used lightweight equipment- imagine that!!!
It doesn’t matter though…I could say this page was gold and Golow would say it was amber…everyone is wasting their breath… I mentioned before…
Ignore GoLow…he has never had anything decent to add to any thread and has baulked at having his own thread because the questions are then pointed at him …he has no answers, only retorts with another question.
If you don’t answer his nonsense, he has nothing to write or get his kicks from…
for someone who thinks this is such a shitty forum and full of bogus information he sure does spend a lot of time roaming around here…see you around GoLow…maybe you can join another golf forum and then go delete all your posts when the going gets tough (you are probably TGM Daryl in disguise )
Also, most golfers that play with shafts that are too stiff and heavy will flight the ball lower and have difficulty squaring the blade. And, whether they realize it or not depending on their experience, a shaft that is too stiff and heavy will feel unresponsive much like swinging a fireplace poker, which usually prevents the golfer from swinging the club efficiently for maximum performance, including ball striking and distance.
I agree with you Go Low… golfers concerned with “swinging” have to deal with all the trappings of trying to time the release of the shaft at the exact moment of impact. You better hit lots of balls and expect erratic play unless you are the one in a million who has that natural innate ability to do so… The do exist…
This is exactly why I promote hitting over swinging… working toward holding shaft flex to impact and beyond. This way, shaft flex issues become pretty much a non issue. Just get a good firm shaft, no need to spine it or worry about frequency matching and all that swingers stuff…
How do I know?
I can play any shaft from a regular to a tipped X with similar results. You can even mix and match them in my bag and send me out for a round and I’ll come back with a respectable score. Stiff shafts are going to give any hitter better control so like Hogan, I lean toward really stiff stuff… but I customize my step patterns progressively different than what the typical chart might be.
Again… swingers are going to need precise shaft fitting. Hitters… well, it’s more for the preference in feel as long as they have some firmness in them. I like the older shafts from the 60’s that had thicker walls, and were heavier to help get the dead weights up to where I can play 3 rounds a month and feel the club like I did when I was on tour.
The traditional view on clubfitting is to fit the gear to whatever the swing is currently. If you have no intention of improving your technique, then you can spend a lot of money on gear to improve your game about 3%. Or you can learn on the kind of gear than allowed some of the greatest swings in the game to evolve from.
If you get in a car and learn to drive with a automatic transmission… you will never learn to really drive a car like a pro who learns with a manual. Same thing in golf. Learn your swing around flat stiff heavy gear, and you might end up striking the ball far beyond your wildest dreams.
Technical race drivers in high performance sports cars are not going to rely upon power steering, and cushy suspension and automatic shifting. They need to feel the car into every turn, feel the road and have control of the gearing when they want.
It’s work driving a high performance car. When I first drove the Ferrari Dino, I didn’t think I could even drive it. It was so tough to shift, and steer, and it was very uncomfortable. You had to learn to drive it. My mechanic would take it out on the track and zoom around in it in ways I could never have dreamed doing myself. I never did learn to drive it… other than a quick and very difficult drive up into a desert canyon.
So what is golf now? It’s like everyone is driving a Cadillac and wondering why they can’t perform on a real golf course. One that requires a variety of shotmaking skills with lots of side slopes and pocket greens that require precision ball placement.
Although the courses may be longer, they are not better. They are not keeping up with runaway technology, and the pros may appear on the surface to be scoring better, but if you take a closer look, they are actually playing worse, because par has moved from 72 to 69 or even 68. It’s the big lie, and not a lie I am buying into.
The Mizuno Shaft Optimizer can be used for any swing method (e.g. swinging, hitting). It doesn’t make any difference.
It would be interesting to have ABS students learn what their personal DNA numbers are and the recommended shafts they should play. The software chooses 3-5 recommended steel shafts with flex product codes and shaft weights in True Temper, KBS, Nippon, Rifle, Project X. The shaft fitting only takes a few minutes and it is free.
I think your students would find it both interesting and enlightening to share and compare their personal Swing DNA numbers.
Better students here do that down the road, because their numbers are going to change significantly after doing 40 thousand module reps. The human body responds very well to strengthening over time when given a chance. Jumping into a set quickly and one might out grow it quickly also.
I like setting a student up with gear they will grown into… so that way there is a progressive feel evolving also in parallel.
Learn on what you are going to end up using I think is a better way.
The high tech analyzers can help once you get down to splitting hairs. I think most people are stuck in traffic on the way to the ballpark.
Lag,
I’ve used that shaft optimizer and it’s a waste of time, there’s nothing specific in it at all. Not only that, but Mizuno’s shaft testing system that allows various different shafts to be tried increases the weight of the head area by a huge amount- I had a similar experience to you a while ago at a golf centre. It feels like you’re holding a hammer it’s so heavy, and when I mentioned it to the guy, he said that it was no different than it would be in a purchased set. No chance!
This is turning into a Golfwrx style thread with this sort of internet/tech information being bandied about as fact- it’s becoming comical. If the troll wants to have these conversations I’m sure there are any number of forums where he can chat it up with all sorts of people about his toys. These ideal numbers about this that and the other have nothing to do with striking the ball off the turf, hitting different shots, and learning about your golf swing. Though I don’t need to tell you that.
I’ve not tried Mizuno’s shaft optimizer yet but know a few people who have that have been very impressed with it. One of my friends who plays off 12 or 13 and had regular shafts tried it and has gone to extra stiff shafts and it has removed his hook. Another player I know who has played for Ireland and plays off around scratch or plus figures was told to go to 5.0 rifles - he had 6.5s in his clubs.
I think it is an interesting tool and will be trying it out to see what it tells me and at that stage I’ll give my opinion.
Here are opinions of people from this forum (at least one student)
Both links have a video on the fitting process. At 4 min 20 they say they have designed the system so that it is just like a regular 6 iron in weight.
At 4 min 50 in the video, a ‘pigeon’ says that being correctly fitted for x100 shafts he has eliminated the left side of the course.
I am looking forward to trying this out and have to agree with Go Low that as it is free, all ABS’ers should do the same. I get what Robbo, Lag and Hugo are saying about heavy gear and bags etc but I also know that a lot of ABS’ers love tinkering with their clubs and think nothing of changing lie angles and switching out shafts so why wait? Get measured now, get the right shafts in and play your game, if down the line when you’ve graduated from ABS you need to change your shafts again, then so be it.
GL…thanks for the reply. Let’s take this discussion down to a more rudimentary level absent Trackman, Launch Gizmos, and the like and see where things go. Earlier you stated:
I think It would be quite easy to argue that in fact one is not giving the lightest gear at that point in time. I believe that what is actually happening is that the child is getting the heaviest gear that they can handle. A matter of semantics perhaps at first glance, but let’s look deeper.
Suppose a child needed to pass through a forest on their way to Grandma’s house. Now we know the forest to be filled with large predator animals. Presuming the only weapon of defense are fallen branches from a nearby tree…would you prefer the child had a lightweight branch from that tree in their hands that they could swing the branch fast…or…have the heaviest possible stick in their hand so they can hit that animal with mass and power? If this was your child, how would you choose…but do so quickly as the animal is fast approaching. Oh…each branch piece is the same length.
Addendum: Just asked my 7 year old grandson about the same scenario. Took him 5 seconds to come up with this: “I would take the heavy stick”. Grandpa being how he is asked why he wouldn’t take the lighter stick. Less time involved with the second response: "because I wouldn’t be able to hurt it." Got to love young minds…they have it all figured out already.
although GL may infuriate a lot of you, he does provoke discussion. Perhaps he would benefit from toning things down but I don’t think he should leave the boards.
I think there is a lot of hostility directed towards him, some of it is unnessecarily (IMO) harsh and some of it actually crosses the line (again IMO) of common respect.
I don’t see how you can “welcome debate on topics” and then shout at the person debating, regardless of the manner of their posting. You may as well say, “we welcome debate on topics as long as it is the same as our own”.
I am all for people being passionate about their subject but some of the dismissive tones and suggestions to go low are not befitting gentlemen.
Well said Styles but actually contains the root of the difficulty from my perspective. Provoking discussion and debating topics are really close to polor oppposites since provoked discussions can be sustained with, or without, facts whereas persuasive debates fail without supporting facts.
) and are eager to hear about these things called persimmon woods, heavy irons, and lie angles that are “not upright”.
What’s that word you foreigners use? Cheers 
)