[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjGaicSMb8M[/youtube]
Jonathon Byrd does not swing like Ben Hogan… let’s clear that up right away.
If you actually swung like Hogan you would hit it like Hogan.
Mirror mirror on the ball who’s the purest of them all…
We are not seeing the next Hogan.
The flip happens because the pivot stalls post impact. If the core is moving faster than the hands, you can use as much
right hand as you want. Hogan reference to wanting 3 right hands was correct. However, he also had one of the best post
impact pivot thrusts in the game.
Go Low, this is not correct. The Austin method is based on a compound pendulum action which involves revolving around two posts formed by the spine and each lower limb respectively. The hands respond to this ‘step and throw’ action which definitely involves the clubface turning over rather than remaining square as in the hitting method.
Yup…chicken wing o’rama! Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but is a power sink.
Go Low - for someone who has supposedly read all the threads and waded through the ABS material and discussions - you retain/understand very little in the context those ideals were written. Consequently, there is little doubt in my mind that you have your preconceived notions and you are flat out unwilling to change them or view anything as positive if it runs counter to those ideas you hold as valid.
We keep covering the same ground over and over. If you aren’t a troll, why are you here? You cannot grasp even the most basic of ABS content or intentionally refuse to accept that there are other ways to swing a golf club.
My god, man, it’s frustrating to read your posts! (which is what Dr. Bones McCoy would be saying right now) 
Captain Chaos
Two,
I don’t follow you in your analysis of Bubba. Take a close look at this slomo video.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-8Er2w3Gkk[/youtube]
He doesn’t stall his shoulders, does he? His hands are out from the pivot, but that’s in his setup. They are not outracing his pivot. I am particularly impressed with how well Bubba keeps his shoulders turning way past impact and how he keeps his hands going in the process. It has been reported that Bubba has a very high smash factor. This is indicative that he hits the ball hard with both ends of the club, so to speak. Steep? Certainly. Flipper? Absolutely not. The “anti flip” is a stronghold of ABS but flat isn’t the only way to get it done.
I really like how Bubba hits it. He even works the ball off the deck with his frying pan driver. Having said all that I think his back would appreciate a flatter swing.
I can’t believe this. Here I was expecting a nice relaxing day of reading when abruptly Low Go burps onto the ABS pages.
Low Go…it is patently obvious to me, and I suspect most here, that you are indeed clueless with respect to the fine nuances involved in the forum’s discussions and methods. If you were fluent and articulate about myriad methods, and can actually execute those, what’s contained on this site is not only very advanced material, but is such that some people, no matter how hard they try, just will not be able to come to grips with it- either mentally or physically. And that be you!
You remind me of some teachers I know that say all the right things and arrive for teaching sessions with their charts and ropes, and books…but to watch them execute is hilarious…and you’ll hear all kinds of excuses: “well, my back is sore today”…“these are new clubs and I haven’t gotten the feel for them yet”…“do as I say, and not as I do”…“I’m only going to hit 8-irons today because I’m a little sore from yesterday”…and the list is endless!
If you are such an expert in knowledge and application…why not come out from under your secret cloud and show what you’ve got by posting a video. I suspect that you won’t because hiding is a strong characteristic of yours…but good players know that there is no hiding- they’re on the stage by themself.
I just can’t believe someone professing expertise can be so clueless with the nuances involved…wait a minute, yes I can!
I feel better…back to retirement! 
ABS is NOT a way to swing the club.
It is a training method to help the students swing ALONG the principles of the best ball strikers. No-one tells them to swing in a certain manner.
they all have their own individual look
You could put 20 students swing videos on here and they would all look in hardly any shape or form very similar at all…that’s why ABS teaching is a little different…no clones allowed
It is called advanced ball striking for a reason
If I can somehow find the pic I have of Hogan’s swing and Lag’s swing approaching impact and post it…you will eat the humble pie
Picture in question…and BTW, it doesn’t really matter that he resembles Hogan…infinitely more important that his intentions and pressures are like Hogan’s.
If you want to swing like Ben Hogan, it’s best to do so through the impact arena. There is nothing wrong with what Hogan did, and there are many great strikers that applied similar principles. I have no problem being accused of swinging like Ben Hogan through impact. I could only be so inclined to pursue such a noble ambition.
However, I do not try to swing like Ben Hogan. I certainly am not using his grip or his setup. I don’t take it back like he does, I start with my hips and shoulders closed and a straight right leg. If my swing resembles Hogan, it would hopefully be through impact, but that would only be because of applying certain principles of opposing forces, similar gear set up, flat lie angles and heavier heads… proper application of ground forces and so forth. These things might create a similar look.
There are other principals that ABS would promote that Hogan may or may not have personally applied.
Golow, you can’t possibly speak competently about things you don’t know about. Trying to discuss ABS concepts with ABS student here is completely senseless. It’s a waste of time and energy.
Discussing the golf swing… what you like to see or not, and why… that is what this public forum is for… but for you to evaluate the ABS course without being a student and understanding the process, intentions and objectives… ends up in conversations going nowhere.
This is simply not an accurate statement. I teach each student as an individual and cater ABS to their specifics.
If you haven’t seen the ABS program and only speculate then you honestly don’t know what you are saying…
If you haven’t seen the students swings for comparison then you honestly don’t know what you are saying…
We have over 80 different players in The Vault who our students get to view and use as reference…I think Hogan is in there.…OH and another 79 different looking swings…so to say ABS is based on Hogan alone is baloney
You commented that,if Hogan was one of the great balls strikers why does no one teaches Hogan’s method?..complete rubbish…teachers have tried to base their teaching on Hogan’s swing for well over 50 years…however no-one has come close to emulating it because most are guessers and have no real life experience under the gun to prove what they are trying to teach actually works and also because Hogan’s swing is a flowing action comprised of many secrets- not just one like everyone tries to peg it down to.
I always found the “1-Plane” camp to be the most liberal with the use of “Hogan-like”.
And then you see that method in action.
Tilt!
Go Low–I can’t speak for Captain Chaos or others, but as for me, I was tired of my bad shot being a hard pull left. So to counter that, I would try and time something so not to snipe it and of course, then I’m missing right. Now I’ve got two misses going on out on the course. It’s really demoralizing playing golf this way. Late last summer, I ran across Lag’s website, did a lot of research, bought some use Hogan PCs and began using them toward the end of the season. Shot an 82–six to eight shots better than usual. This was before I began Lag’s modules.
The last eight years I’ve been playing light, upright, plastic gear, taking lessons from PGA instructors that believe in position swinging, like thousands of others around the world and my scoring has not improved. My short game has improved for survival’s sake, but that was deteriorating b/c of the poor ballstriking. I finally drew a line in the sand b/c this way DOES NOT work or produce results. Where are all the falling handicaps among ams out there? I wanted to learn a better way, a more advanced way to strike the ball–advanced ball striking, small caps; a way to eliminate the left side and keep my ball in play.
We are here voluntarily and I’ll bet others are here b/c they were as frustrated as me and have a similar story. I know we come off as acolytes sometimes, but that’s to be expected. We’re seeing results, real and dramatic in most cases. I wish you no ill-will, Go Low. But you can’t convince me otherwise. Been down that road and been lost in its alleys. Not going there again.
Bird may be a fine modern player, but he is not applying Hogan’s ideals through the impact arena.
The arms are disconnecting from the body, the shaft is moving off plane, clubface is rapidly closing due to sequencing differences.
There are perfectly understandable reasons Hogan struck the ball the way he did, and why J. Bird was 129th in driving accuracy last year. Far from anything Hogan like. Comparisons like this are really silly. I only bring this to light and present a comparative photo to illustrate part of “the why”
Go Low,
Your logic errors out because you observe discussions related to the advantages of a pivot driven hitting protocol and the potential risks of other swinging type protocols and then conclude that “anything other than ABS swing “protocols”, Hogan type moves, playing heavy and flat gear, is the wrong way to learn a good golf swing”. Time and time again it has been reiterated that swinging is a perfectly effective and viable option but tends to rely more on timing, ball beating, and a nerve-resistant temperment (generalities observed over lifetimes around profession golf [not mine]). Pivot driven hitting can have it’s own challenges including a certain amount of strength required and a typcially slightly reduced overall max-distance potential. Had you been around longer you would have heard things from Lag like “If I ever teach a swinging ABS program” and “If you have the temperment of Jack Nicklaus then swinging will take you all the way to the winners podium” (paraphrasing from memory here). Additionally, there a myriad components of ABS not related to release of the club, shoulder steepness, etc., that are common to all the greats and are taught here accordingly.
The students in this program are interested in leveraging the advantages of the framework Lag lays out. I doubt he would teach this protocol to an older lady with physical limitations and I doubt that if a high-schooler came to Lag with a swing and termperment like Fred Couples that he would advocate an overhaul.
Quote: “Are you suggesting that the ABS training modules would accommodate teaching methods catered to a golfer wanting an upright two-plane centrifugal/centripetal force golf swing?”
I suspect that in and ABS program for a swinger some modules would be completely different and some would be quite similar. If the intentions are different the modules would be different. And for future referent 1 plane - 2 plane is completely irrelevant.
If you haven’t used flatter, heavier gear then how are you to know what is better?
I have never heard anyone make so many assumptions on so many things that has never experienced them
As for why people having not been able to copy Hogan’s swing…I spelled it out for you…they think he had [size=150]A[/size] secret…he had many secrets to making his swing work that all interlinked…
and I will spell it out again- NO-ONE WILL come close to swinging like Hogan and they certainly won’t come close to his ball control, sound of impact, trajectory control, maneuvering the ball ability… in this day and age because the equipment is too far removed and poorly designed to teach kids growing up such a swing protocol to take place-
so the guys we see will all hit it 390 offline- hack it out and chip it in for birdie or one putt for par…they can score these days but I sure wouldn’t pay the money for entrance if I wanted to go watch PURE ball striking- because it almost doesn’t exist…
You must be a manufacturer or something GL because you sure as heck love sticking up for the modern day equipment- c’mon spill the beans and make everyone happy so we can just put it down to money regarding your thoughts and not so much down to having the blinkers on
Fair point, it’s kind of like saying there are multiple ways to climb a tree. Can you provide some ways that lead to better ball striking? Maybe not a method, but like a handful of things that will work during the swing - maybe for you or what you have observed. Like how does Mickelson have zero consistency off the tee but wedge everything inside 150yards to inside 5 feet from the hole? What is his “secret sauce”? I think Martin Kaymer is a pretty good ball striker but he had a pretty awful day yesterday in Qatar so maybe his swing isn’t that repeatable - where do you think he is doing things right or wrong. Jhonny Vegas too either choked or chunked it on 18 last week - what happened to him?
Go Low,
It’s simple. Discussing the risks, benefits, and general effectiveness of any swing type does not mean you are concluding the alternative cannot be valid under any circumstance. Each person might have their own beliefs as to the probability of achieving their goals within a certain framework or the probability of achieving a high degree of success amongst a group of people. If you hear a lot about the benefits of pivot driven hitting relative to the alternative then maybe it’s because you won’t hear much about the risks up upright, Cf swinging in the golfing world at large and the golf equipment industry has turned its back on any other alternative which is in part what this thread was about before it became about you. I’m guilty of giving you the attention you obviously want and laming up what was a nice, entertaining story thread.
You are WRONG on all accounts…you must just type and not read…It is about pressures internal and external…it is about training the muscles to feel these pressures and train them to repeat repeat repeat so day in day out golf is easier—through actually having a functional golf swing and not having to buy $500 drivers and $1000 sets of irons HOPING the game will come easy that way
There is NO basic ABS swing- there are NO must do protocols- there are forces in the swing- some we learn to use and some we learn to fight against…We don’t ask someone to point their toe at 37 degrees and have their hip flexor at 49.6 degrees going back and 29.76 degrees coming down…most parts of the ABS students swing become their own personal choice
GoLow We have given you so many opportunities to start your own thread and make us believers but so far nothing- won’t give us a background to actually make us think you may know something, won’t give us a swing, won’t give us anything…you just want to avoid being put on the stage… but enjoy dropping the sandbags from the rafters on anyone’s head down on the stage that has something to say…I feel like Will Smith in Men In Black…hint: You aren’t Tommy Lee Jones…
Finally we get to the bottom of it… you’re the “golf swing police”!
Again you make the off-base assumption that by looking at a students youtube clips you know what their intentions are. That’s ridiculous. No student has had his arm twisted to fork over any money and comply with an ABS protocol. You’re cause is noble but mis-guided and a waste of bandwidth.
Hardy’s 1P/2P site can be accessed at planetruthgolf.com
I think they have a forum there and would love to hear you espouse your swing theories.
As Tiger so eloquently put it when talking with one of his “friends” about removing her name from her cell…Hurry! Quickly!