Two,
Do i get bous points if i pick the 2 
You would need a blindfold not to be able to pick them …and you are smarter than you let onto everyone 6pk… I believe you when you say you know…you are pretty switched on…what do you think about the reasons we see the roll and flip like this…equipment or technique or both or one leading to the other?
And if you want perfection- look no farther
Two, there are numerous reasons why a good golfer could have what looks to be a flipping action…some intentional and some problematic. Various players use an angled hinge or vertical hinge action depending on the shot they’re hitting. Some players use more of a hitting style whereas some use more of a centripetal/centrifugal force style - both producing a different wrist action. Some players hit fades or draws using more hand/wrist action whereas others adjust grip/clubface or stance or swing path. All these methods are perfectly acceptable and commonplace, and there’s nothing wrong with doing any of them. As far as something that produces a flipping action that is problematic - pivot stall is something that will promote flipping (as you yourself should well know).
Matt Kuchar has one of the flattest swing on tour using the S&T swing method. A we know S&T players are all about rotary (pivot) movement. Matt’s left wrist is so bent (collapsed) at impact it’s almost unbelieveable. I’ve seen it first-hand hundreds of times from just a few feet away. So, why does Matt’s extremely flat swing with strong rotary (pivot) action cause him to flip into impact? So, how did Matt become the #1 PGA money title in 2010?
A few pro flippers:
Lee Westwood 
Martin Kaymer 
Retief Goosen 
Fernando Molinari 
Brandt Snedeker 
Chad Campbell 
because he raises his hands very upright and has steep shoulders at impact- he is going to be a flipper all the way
He may swing flat but he uses way too upright clubs (as you can see in the photo)…again you can swing flat all you want but if you use the upright equipment you are leaving plenty on the table. He is obviously playing well and confidence is high so not knocking him , good on him- surely you can again see what the upright equipment does to the swing --even trying to swing flat like he has tried to do
Too right with the pics- they are all flippers the world over bar very few-- Manessero looks good, McIlroy is pretty good, obviously Sergio and Furyk are good… Allenby is not too shabby… but again…when your clubs are upright you HAVE to raise your hands…once you raise your hands you get up on your toes and lose your support and your shoulders get steep…,once your shoulders get steep your pivot stalls, once your pivot stalls you have to reignite the speed by flipping…and then play catch up with your pivot and then just pose for the camera on the follow thgru and everyone says what a beautiful looking swing because they only see the finish and not the horrible blurr that happened the second previous
I can’t say it any clearer except by YELLING!!!..Or maybe I am nuts?.. but I did experience it and I see it…obviously 99 % of the world’s golf coaches teach this steep shouldered dump arm flip roll so maybe I am the minority and don’t know what I am talking about 
Maybe Hogan, Trevino and the truly great strikers had it wrong too?
No he is not ignorant …he just doesn’t know any better… and I bet his club fitter one day said…“oohh Matt you are so tall, you need clubs that are 6 degrees upright”…look at his club …it has to be 6 degrees upright or more…what hope does he have but return his hands high and steep shoulder it
Good night…it just doesn’t get any plainer than day than that…
upright clubs= upright hand impact with steep shoulders…vertical or horizontal flip hinge…clubface roll
flat clubs= flatter hand impact with leveling rotating shoulders…angle hinge… clubface constant
Go Low:
Not sure where you are going with this but stack and tilt emphasizes linear as well as rotary… in fact they emphasize linear more than just about any other pattern I’ve heard of. In terms of release and post impact they say it’s compatible with Cp, inline, or Cf style release but if you look at their PGA players they are all Cf…nothing like ABS. It’s all irrelevant anyways because Kuchar hasn’t, to my knowledge, ever worked with Plummer or Bennett or Mac and isn’t in the S&T camp. He’s more the 1 plane Hardy posterboy, again nothing like ABS so if you argument is Kuchar = ABS therefore ABS = Flip then you are 47 degrees of separation away.
and if one more person says Chad Campbell swings it like Hogan I may well slit my wrists
Here’s how Matt Kuchar’s swing coach (Chris O’Connell) explains Matt’s swing: golfweek.com/news/2010/sep/0 … game-golf/
Good gosh - no…I am not comparing S&T or Matt Kuchar to the ABS method. They are miles apart. I have no idea where you got that idea… Matt Kuchar’s swing coach since about 2006 is Chris O’Connell.
There is no doubt that we are not seeing the next Hogan. Why? We have Tiger who can’t find a fairway half the time. Barkow watched Hogan for years and others from that era who saw it first hand said he would go weeks sometimes without missing a fairway. Trevino and Knudson are probably the closest to Hogan like ball control the modern age has seen. All three of them… flat flat flat.
Moe’s swing makes perfect sense, and if you are going to full roll release it with dead hands… you go Moe’s route in my opinion.
I really believe that with a proper golf swing, you don’t have to ball beat. Could Moe have flushed it like he did if he never hit balls? I am not sure.
Maybe he could… but he hit a lot of balls right up until the end. It was an addiction.
I think a lot of ball beaters are really just insecure with their golf swings. No doubt that if you are playing everyday, you can make all kinds of things work. But what I am after for ABS students are good fundamentals that start by putting their gear in their favor considerably. Flat… to move the vector of possibility to their right and away from long left.
Second, stiff shafts for better control… so if they over accelerate, they can still have some idea where it is going. They may not be pin hunting on those days, but they will have much better success than if they are trying to time whippy shafts, and have to worry about spining the shafts and all the timing stuff that loose shafts serve up.
Third. Heavier gear to put more feel into the students hands so they can feel the club even on their off days, and the heavier heads put the physics of impact into their favor also. The ball will compress better with more mass in the head. This is why the greats used heavy gear.
Now once we have our gear set up… then we can learn to feel the swing around those equipment protocols. The module work clears up any confusion about intentions, and each player will use their own swing and personal style to surround what are basically biomechanical improvements working toward high ideals that have been time tested and supported by the games finest ball strikers. I can also support the findings with my own direct and personal knowledge. I have played off upright gear in the past, and I have played off flat gear. Knowing what I know, I see no advantage to upright gear. Not for anyone. Can you play good golf with upright gear? Of course… however, you are simply not taking advantage of what flat lie angles can offer. It tightens up the vector’s of possibility, and it works more correctly and in harmony with the characteristic design of the human body.
Lag,
Great images!
You can see this effect just by picking up a club in your hands and looking at the sweet spot on the clubface. Rotate the club.
With upright lie angles the sweet spot moves through a bigger arc than if you have lower lie angles. If the club was completly flat there would be no arc in the sweet spot (just rotation), but I’m not sure if a human could hit a golf ball like that!
Forgot to add… The less the sweet spot moves the less timing you need! 
Sorry to interrupt this lively discussion, but could you please define “steep shoulders” and how the classic greats didn’t have them? Looking at the Hogan pics on page 5/6 it looks like his right shoulder is way below his left at impact and I would even estimate the angle from right should to left at impact is even greater than what Kuchar is showing at impact.
Just confused. Thanks
budman…see pic below…these are pics of almost identical same position in the swing of Hogan and Bubba Watson…take note of blue line…
Hogan is not steep with shoulders- his open shoulders and shoulder/torso rotation actively rotates his hands/arms around in the same direction- (note very little gap between butt of club and body)
Bubba (using as an eg) is extremely steep (vertical with his shoulders)- His shoulders have stopped- his hands and arms have independently flown off his body…the hands roll, the club closes and the gap between the butt of the club and the body increases
We could carry this a bit farther and put a red line on the shaft to again show how much better Hogan keeps his club on line with his center or swing core (his navel) showing much better connection of body work as we can see compared to Bubba’s red line which goes up more vertical towards his pecs…(where it has to go when you come in with such upright equipment)…
so upright makes your hands want to work off the body and not in tune with the body core as you will tend to gravitate to get steep/vertical shoulders (especially when the club is so light these days)…you can swing a telegraph pole around your body, but it’s a bit harder to swing a feather around your body…and consistent good golf becomes more of a fight…a lot of pros can fight this and play well sometimes because they practice a lot and can find the groove to make it work, your normal weekend golfer doesn’t have that luxury
At least one commentator every time Chad Campbell’s on camera.
I see Jonathon Byrd as having a similar flattish looking backswing to Hogan but there are so many elements to Hogan’s swing - one position that looks similar isn’t going to mean it is the same all the way
He again shows a distinct hand roll clubface flick through impact with arms working off the body- just like everyone today…(but not as severe as many)…A tonne of this swing we see today is a bi-product of the equipment that gets thrust into their hands early on and then as time passes… the more the clubs get upright and light, the more we see these vertical steep shouldered, arms fly off the body, hand roll swings forming
Its easy to see that Hogan is still in control of ( and connected to) the clubshaft while Bubba is no longer controlling the shaft.Just wonder what your thoughts are on Mike Austin’s comments that ‘if you try to keep up with the clubhead…you are dead’, meaning presumably that he advocated releasing and allowing the clubhead to flip. This is fine as Austin was a swinger rather than a hitter, but my question relates to speed…do you think it is possible for a hitter to develop the same speed at impact as a swinger?
P.S. I know that the avowed intention is have the highest speed at p4 but my question relates to impact speed only.