RR, I think we would all agree here that post impact thought/intent is important - its at the heart of everything students learn in the ABS modules. But I think what Two is saying is that however central a tenet that is you cannot just look at a post impact position and attempt to ape it without undertanding what creates it and supports it. I’m pretty sure you would agree. If you are meeting resistance it is simply because on the other side of the fence in then student area, we learn things in a very specific order whether we are tour players, hackers or somewhere in the middle. I don’t think there is any harm in understanding the sequence in which things are addressed as students - you can see them here http://www.lagpressure.com/instruction.html But we have come to learn that they taught in this order for good reason and see the pitfalls of focussing to far down the line before earlier modules have been mastered. No doubt many felt like me that its nice to see the whole picture at a superficial level at an early stage but its really only by feeling these things in your body by doing the module work that I believe its possible to get a deeper level of understanding IMHO.
Macs: Relax! One can imply what they want but I don’t think anyone is foolish enough to infer that ABS is using heads devoid of lie. I’ve never seen any have you? If one were to be able to find one your diagram would work, I think.
But lets get back to it the subject and I will restate it again. If you take a club with any degree of loft and place the shaft on a horizontal plane the degrees of loft in the head will be displaced to the shaft and the direction will be left (on a Rhand club) in degrees equivalent to the loft. PERIOD! Do you disagree?
What you have described, I first read about in the 1980’s by a guy named Dennis Waitley. He called it “soaring”, and he used a similar example of being able to drive a car without consciously thinking about what you are doing…in other words, you have been trained and done it enough so as to be able to turn it over to your subconscious brain. Davis Loves 3’s dad probably was urging the same thing when he once told Davis “don’t TRY”. ( don’t think about it)
My perception is that is exactly what is being accomplished at ABS…An attempt is made to learn some proper reliable procedures so well they can be “turned over to the subconscious”. ( wouldn’t do any good to drive with your subconscious if you had not been properly and reliably trained FIRST)Others have referred to it as “playing out of your mind”.
Macs, I think you may have misinterpreted that one- I’m pretty sure that was a response to me clarifying what that lie issue was, and then he thanked me and LCDV for helping him with using the smiley faces…
I’m not taking corners here, just clarifying the point of that post of RRs…
Correct me if I’m wrong RR
Arnie is correct RR…what I was saying is…If I had every intention of just throwing the club up into a beautiful high PV5 position…I couldn’t just do it… it’s a combination of events that bring that position on. Not just the intent of doing it.
If all someone attempts to do is get to that position alone they will miss out on some other sequence of events that are actually vital to repetitive good ball striking…that’s why they are modules in a sequence with no jumping ahead just for the sake of being curious or wonder.
If I built a skyscraper and got so worried about the 75th floor before I had concreted the 15th floor I would be certain to leave something out and ruin the entire thing.
I am not going to get into Lag’s philosophy about the PV5 or other swing areas and what may be new or not new…he states all along what he teaches is nothing new, as the greats of the game have all used it to affect just about every man to a tee. Unfortunately most people aren’t taught it or understand it thoroughly and wonder why they have 85 one day and 105 the next. And certainly what looks like one thing from an outer view is something entirely different from an inner feel when it is approached with the module training . Every student of Lag’s will attest these statements to the man.
As for your mention about driving a car and doing other things at the same time-- that’s exactly the mentality. Most golfers however have 15 thoughts and 23 variations on each so there really is little chance to swing effectively with all that rattling around their heads at once. Our intention with the ABS program is to ingrain these movements into our body and our mind so we can turn our brain off while we play and let it all flow through natural instinct, tuition and repetition we have ingrained and integrated into our own personal style–just like the greats of the game eventually did and just like years of driving a car have allowed us to do–
—although many people in the US can’t drive worth a crap and think their indicators are optional extras that don’t have to be used
I hope I don’t get in trouble answering your question as this thread does center on the 4:30 line. However, I did ask if another thread should be started. Now to answer your question. Yes, your observation in right on target. But we all know that even the subconscious can operate in ways counter to any training we may receive. And we may not know a counter corrective measure occurred.
Let’s take for example a person who has superb balance, timing, tempo, rhythm throughout their swing motion but have chosen to pursue an across the line fade/cut action as their primary method of playing the game. Now have that same person perform that routine with their toes on the very edge of the Grand Canyon and the ball suspended in mid-air over the canyon. Contrary to all their training and mental prowess, the subconscious is going to override many aspects of that motion to ensure balance is a primary concern and the attributes secondary and tertiary, and so forth. Its not to say that it couldn’t be done, but if we were to be able to compare the motion at the edge of the canyon as opposed to those we might see while he was standing on green grass, I’m confident that measurable differences would be present. So we have to be fully aware of how that process works. Hope that clears things up a little. RR
macs…would it be correct to say your thinking is-- that if the club was swung on an up and down line ,say through a straight line back and towards the target then yes it would go left and right with poor face alignment at impact…however when we talk 4.30 line (and even exaggerated beyond that!! as you are well aware of) we are going to see greater trajectory changes and less directional changes with the shot pattern…
just trying to help out here and give another visual… you are correct…the flatter we go the more or less trajectory we produce with a misaligned face at impact…the more we get up and down a straight target line the more direction we are off target when the face is not perfect at the moment of truth…
I believe we are thinking semi circles visually thinking (4.30 line) and not straight lines- aren’t we…as it not co incidence that the players with the flattest best approach into impact and beyond thru the ages have also been the straightest most efficient ball strikers
Are there any clubmakers out there that would like to chime in. I owned my own club making company for many years and what I’ve stated above is so spot on I don’t know how to respond to you. Since I don’t know how to post pictures or other media that may help, I can only suggest- short of other clubmakers chiming in- that you take my comments to any clubmaker or OEM company of your liking and see what they tell you if you have the inclination to do so.
TM; RR
This has been quite a revelation for me. Did Lag hit a driver of his knees when you were up there. The more I think about it the more I want my clubs to be flatter to 8 may be 10 degree. Given that it takes some body conditioning to be able to bend that low through impact and be able to move the pivot out of that deep sit down in time. Yes we are mainly talking about a face angle at impact but a totally flat club where the hosel is in line with the leading edge is also more difficult to swing OTT.
RR you dont have to assemble a real club to see the effect. I am in my office working the night shift but I have made such a club from a sticky paper. In one example I make a traingle out of the sticky note with the sticky part as the leading edge and then just stick a pencil into it. Now I can role it clock and counter clock wise but as long as I am moving the club in line the ball (a little roll of cotton) goes straight regardless of the face alignment.
In the very upright club I just tilt the pencil upright and the other straight edge of the triangle as the leading edge. Now open and close the club face and the chnage in direction is degree for degree.
I can add any amount of loft to the sticky paper triangle and it still behaves the same.
Now imagine this assembly to be of club length and try to hit a ball to go between your legs as you stand in your stance (extreme OTT) and see with which club its easier. Lag showed me this example of trying to pull the ball with a driver while on your knees ---- its difficult unless you are willing to fall over on your right shoulder.
Add to this the concept of the D-plane (I am not 100 % sure of its accuracy but they say the initial ball flight is 80 % club face and 20 % swing path) and you get the picture.
So in summary by flattening a club you decrease the importance of club face allignement proportional to the degree flattened, and you also make it more difficult to swing OTT. BUT AND THIS IS A BIG ONE — you make it more demanding on your body in terms of flexibility as well as strength. You can not just flatten your clubs 10 degrees one day and hope to cure everything. It has to be incremental and supported by the modules.
Exactly why I have my clubs bent down 6 degrees and the shaft/hosel almost form a straight line through the center of the club-- nicely pointed out macs
Thanks TM
I am all indebted to Lag’s bag. Just being able to stop at the moment of truth can do wonders to your understanding of the golf swing.
RR if you go read that previous discussion I was able to convince Jeffman on this issue and you may not know him but he can be a bit hard to convince.
Macs: Sorry. I know you’re tyring you best and even with TM’s support I still am missing something. My wife thinks I’m crazy and totally lost it when she sees me playing with sticky notes. Lets do this for sake of brevity. I’m going to consult with a few additional expert clubmakers if they haven’t gone south already. I talk to them and let them read these posts and perhaps I will be able to get a better understanding of what’s going on here. Thanks again for your time RR
Macs and TM: Holy cow the Yank finally gets it!!! I’ve always known this I just got a little confused, I guess, with going back and forth with words. Here it it and I couldn’t agree more with you both.
A flatter lie increases the impact interval which in itself can be more forgiving to flight dispertion as opposed to a more vertical approach that finds the ground quicker. Isn’t that what we’ve been trying to get on the same page with? If it is, you guys at ABS must have exceptional pivot speed as the attack angle is very narrow- but a very cool manuver if one can trap it. Did I nail it??
RR pretty close for a real club. But the theoritical flat club can not go “unstraight”.
One Caveat though. If you flatten the lie angle on your irons too much without your body atoned, you may approach the divot in a toe heavy position which opposes the club to square resulting in big push slices. With the driver you can flatten it with impunity because you are hitting of a tee.
Hey Pipp…that’s enough of that…where else in the world is it MANDATORY to make a right hand turn from the left hand lane than in downtown Melbourne city centre
Macs: By golly, I thought so. We were on the same page afterall!! I use this method sometimes myself. If I want to hit a low punching screamer through the woods I will swing very flat with my standard lie clubs and use a lot of wrist downcock to drop the toe with simultaneous holding off the club during the impact interval to playagainst the tendency for the ball to go too far left. It’s a toe down push move through impact. It works for me. Glad we finally got this issue resolved. Thanks for your time, I really appreciate it.
