Inside quadrant 4:30 on the ball and illusions

  1. You have to remember that the inside out motion is a visual illusion…as we aim our hands at the inside quadrant (4:30 on the ball) the clubhead comes around and hits the back of the ball (3:00). If you were to view this from behind it would not look this way. Because our eyes are above the plane looking down on it, things appear to move in an arc, but again, looking from behind we would see more straight lines… also remember that the exact angle that you might visuallly see, would vary from person to person depending on your height, how far you stand from the ball, and what club you are using, upright, flat…and so forth…

A camera on Tiger’s cap showed us this interesting ex ray vision… from his view…


I am using Tiger’s feet as a general reference, with a 4 iron, I am assuming a fairly square stance… The trick of this is that with the camera mounted
on his hat, it did seem to be fairly square at address… I had to rotate the photo for our visual purposes, therefore Tiger’s eyes are a very much on the 4:30 line,
in other words, his eyes are square to the edges of the rotated inner photo…

So you can see his hands just coming into P3 and of course he is on the 4:30 line.


From a lower speed camera, it looks like shaft flex is held nicely… with is eyes cocked back on the 4:30 line just like Gary Player did so well…


We don’t need our eyes square to the target line… better they are cocked back for our golden pathway into impact. … mplication

Nice link above…no images or swing. just thoughts…I thought it was interesting to hear from Jim Furyk what he thinks makes his swing and other swings tick even though they may look different.

I have always liked Jim Furyk’s golf swing… once I took a close look at it…
this is a very fundamentally sound golf swing…

He is applying a lot of wonderful principles that we are all working on here.
Nicely on the P# 4:30 line… laid off shaft, rotating with strong forearms back into
3:00 on the ball… great angle no roll hinge, and wonderful 5th accumulator work…

What’s not to like… what’s all the fuss? ignorance I suppose.

I was daydreaming on this subject today and it ocurred to me how nice it would be to be able to
get shots of the same actual swing at the p3 4.30 positon from different angles simultaneously i.e

  • from dtl
  • from face on
  • from above
  • at 45 degrees from the target line

In the past I have had lessons using multiple cameras simultaneously so the face on / dtl thing prob
iisn’t that complex if you have access to the kit. Of course we all know what these shots will look
like in general terms but the fact that it would be exactly the same swing catalogued at exactly
the same point from different angles would be v cool!

That’s a great idea because that pic of Gary Player from behind and above that Lag references put a big question mark in my head followed by a bright light bulb. Visual perspective can go a long way in explaining feelings and intent.


the only thing I dont like about Furyk swing is the right heel is coming off even in the first frame. Not easily visible in the rest. Lag do you think one should try to keep that right foot planted longer.

I like keeping the right foot down to preserve ground pressures…
Furyk does not have great post impact thrust, and is not a long hitter, but he is very on plane going through the ball, much better than most. If I were to work with him, it would not be on his backswing. :unamused:

The right foot is very much tied to the left knee… if you look at the great strikers who really keep pressure late into the right foot, you see a lot of bent left knee into P4. Not a bad thing… I watched Moe Norman for years hit into a bent (but firm) left knee.

We go into this entire subject in great depth in module #4, and how the ground forces, left knee options, right foot participation, pivot thrust post impact, and how the torso plays into all of this. There is a lot to this, and things need to be done correctly or it can spell disaster. When executed and trained properly, this is one of the great cornerstones of the golf swing.

Hi Lag.
I was wondering about Furyk and his downswing arm positions. His left arm is very much on his chest and his right elbow is trailing his right hip into impact. I typically have a similar look to this, and it has been the focus of much of my work with my previous coach to eliminate this (frustratingly without success :cry:). He feels that by getting my left arm more off the chest and parallel to the base line when also parallel to the ground, and my right elbow more folded in front of my hip it would help stop my flippy CF feeling release down the line and instead obtain more of a leftward moving angled hinge.

We would always use Mac as the model. And when you look at Hogan and other great actions, especially ‘Hitters’, the left arm is often well off the chest at this point in the swing.

However, when i look at Furyk from DTL i expect his follow through to be flippy and down the line like mine because of his trailing right elbow and ‘in’ position with his left arm and yet he isn’t at all! Angle hinging out of his mind!!!

Is this fairly rare and unique to Furyk and not generally desirable? Or perhaps none of this is of the significance i thought it was?

I am guessing that module 3 will help clear a lot of this stuff up…

Furyk is doing more things right than wrong I can assure you…

Keeping the arms on the body is great stuff… unfortunately the average golfer has little chance of successfully making this work well because they don’t have the hand speed to do it through impact… With our module #1 and #2 we are opening up that door for our own possibilities if we so desire a tighter quicker pivot rotation… I hope we all do…

Much confusion exists over how to keep the arms packed upon the body post impact, and we cover this in module #3. It can of course be done, but it needs to be done correctly with the correct hinging and pivot installed.

Unlike TGM, in this class, physics trumps geometry. We create our geometry through properly sequenced forces and pressures.
The golf ball never leaves the tee with only geometry.

Lag,Twomasters or LCD

               First of all i switched to the dark side hitting after many yrs of swinging. A question for you the 4.30 line would the only diff compared to what TGM teach is there angle of approach is the same as the 4.30 line but instead of going to rt field and off plane at ABS were cutting hard left? Is the visual the same from birds eye view? Except were usuing are hands actively to rip around the corner fighting cf with the arms glued to the chest. I'm really trying to feel the clubhead behind my rear end from top to p3 so it feels like i have to go left to hit it straight. Trainining by putting the the club at 4.30 clubhead behind me arms maybe a 5 to 6 inches past zipper and then trying to rip thru to p5.Trying to save as much right arm as possible which feels strange because as a  past swinger that right arm wanted to straighten out from that position p3. As i hit these punch shots there seems to be some right elbow bend left i'm not swinging full were i'd be  finishing high just punch shots.

So i know everyones visual is a little different due to posture ,lie angle.height of player but the question is is it still a straight lint ot the iside of the ball then hard left?

                                                                     Thank you

Closest thread I could find. Finally found one of you ABS guys over on Youtube ( Anthgolf1- Mod 1 work ) doing work with a shaft on the 4:30 line. Are there other ABSers over there that I haven’t found? If there is I would like to take a look so could you chime in with one of those little clicky-do things on the post that I can click and be magically taken to Youtube. :slight_smile:

I like your way of taking people for a ride … or two. FYI Lag makes a living of those modules. They are not for free.

Macs - your dedication to protecting Lags interests is admirable but lets not jump on people who have found publically available content on you tube in the spirit of genuine inquiry. There is no mandate on students keeping video of their own module drill work private on the net. Many decide to keep it private for their own reasons / motivations :blush: but that is their choice. I know all ABS students take seriously the responsibility to keep the core module instructional videos created by Lag from being circulated improperly but I don’t think there is a problem with the students own mod work being on view if they choose. It hints at the process but doesn’t really give away the underlying ABS principles that are of such value let alone the individual tuning that Lag provides each student. IMHO anyone coming across mod work on the net will probably be more likely to become a student if they are intrigued. So I don’t we should get stuck into RR for finding stuff that is out there freely in the webisphere. RR is a relative newcomer to ABS and the online world but he knows his golf so lets make him welcome. And if he wants to follow Lags course more formally in time, after finding out whats freely on offer on here, then I am sure he will :smiley:

Cheers, Arnie

Fair comments from both macs and Arnie…we could answer some of your questions RangeRat but without all the pieces in the puzzle slowly building into place then it would be all for nothing and only confuse you, no matter what standard of golf you play…it’s no use putting the engine in a ferrari when you are sitting at the wheel of a VW bug in a sense…I think you were mentioning areas that come about in module 3 and 4 and maybe module 5 and 6!!! …so forgive us for not really saying much…it just won’t work by jumping that far ahead…
that’s what golf unfortunately is…a quick band aid fix that solves one problem quickly but then drags along another 10 problems for a ride to golfing hell. There is logic behind every part of the modules and they are labeled 1,2,3 accordingly relating to their relevance in the building process. Hitting left, PV5 and other things you mention just CANNOT be done…They become vapor trails of the training and automatically become instinct without thought…a much better way to play. If I try just throw the club up to PV5 I am losing all relevance in some other area of my swing that will create a downfall of my system somewhere along the line.
Hope that adds a bit to your question.
At ABS there are no quick fixes…it can take time and certainly takes diligence…but at the end of it all instead of our students having little band aids placed in a few areas of their body…they will come out looking like King Tut…all wrapped and warm and fuzzy with no mysteries and all areas covered, trained and ready to proceed and co-operate at their best performance level on a much more consistent basis because their body now knows what to do and the brain can actually just go ahead and let it flow with what it knows
Glad you have found the site and are anxious to learn some more about your swing…there are plenty of nuggets out there on this thread and even in the old Lags Golf Machine thread that was transferred over from iseek

Would like to comment. Should I make a new topic or thread or whatever it’s called?

I guess it depends what the comment refers to but I wouldn’t get too hung up either way. Probably eaiser to post here if it follows on.

Cheers, Arnie

Addington: Thank you, and thank you for your previous position. I’m confident your thoughtfulness and patience must serve you well in this life. You were correct- I was simply looking at someone’s module work without judgement. I’ve been around the grand game long enough to know the absolute peril of looking at someone and trying to determine their intent. I don’t know if Anthgolf was working on strengthening his wrists, shoulder positioning, pivot speed, or shoes v. no shoes. Don’t know and don’t need to know. I was just curious :slight_smile:

Macs: Relax a little. I am not Indiana Jones trying to steal modules from the Lost Temple. And BTW, the only thing I like to “ride” is something with dimples and I don’t mean Shirley Temple. :laughing: I just find the site interesting.

Two Masters: As I just said I find the site interesting but nothing I have been able to see so far is in any way confusing to me- the methods of pivot driven club movement is as old as the hills. Now if ABS has found a way to reinvent the human muscular/skeletal structure I will be the first to sign up for the modules. I am not trying to learn more about my swing because I don’t have “a” swing, I have many swings- one for each occasion. But you did make one point that caught my attention. You stated, essentially, that a post impact thought cannot be used effectively because something else will be left unattended. I couldn’t disagree more. To do so would be to deny the many pieces of the puzzle left behind by the greats of the game. If you want an example, just ask and I will be more that happy to provide one for you.

You mentioned nuggets. You’re correct there are some good things on ABS. To show that I am not the enemy let me return a nugget. The greats have known that the mind is more important than postions.

Sorry that message posted before I was done- my finger slipped on this stupid pad.

If you want to find great golf here it is…Imagine yourself driving a car along a crowded highway. On one level you are paying attention to the street signs while at the same time you are going over your shopping list within your head. While you are doing both things at the same time what’s making those minute hand movements that are moving the steering wheel in tiny directions. Find that and you find the game. Thanks

I will just reply with this. After taking the time to answer RR’s question regarding the relevance of flat lies to direction he replies with this :

; implying that at ABS we are using clubs with no lie angle, followed by 3 laughing dimples.