Good thing it wasn’t a small town a couple hours WEST of the bay area or you’d have been learning from Jacques Cousteau! 
Captain Chaos
Thanks for the advice. I have been studying hard for the last 6 months, everything from Hogan to TGM to Knudson and back. I have filtered it all out finding what went with the direction I wanted to move, and through all my research and studying is actually how I found this site. I have also gone back through several books since starting and began recording relevant passages for reference. Most recently, I have been looking at Hogan’s Power Golf and Ted Williams’ The Science of hitting (baseball book but lots of relevant info). At some point, I plan to start a thread and share some of my findings with everyone else and see what everyone has to say.
Again thanks for taking the time to respond. I am really dedicated to my golf progress, and it means a lot to talk with people who have made it to where I want to go, especially those who weren’t child prodigies. I get so tired of listening by the bull$%&# that so many seem to feel obligated to tell me about how everyone on tour was scratch or better starting high school. I have met a lot of tour players through caddying in Pro-Ams, and I know this simply isn’t true. I know that with the right information sources, there is no reason why I can’t go as far as I want. There ARE right answers, and with them and practice, nobody can take the opportunity away from you.
I look forward to the rest of this thread.
jrich99, you wrote:
LCDV wrote:
In Jim Collins’ book, “Good To Great” he outlines how several companies make the transformation from poor to mediocre, to GREAT. There are some similar ABS and LCDV principles, and Collins even mentions LCDV’s Coach John Wooden…
Some of the companies Collins uses have fallen by the wayside…so maybe there is another book to be written about sustaining greatness. But I think the message is clear…there is a path to making your transformation if you are a company, a team, or probably an individual. I bet you are on it.
“The Talent Code” and “Talent is Overrated” are both great reads on the subject. I think there’s a thread on here about “The Talent Code” already, but everyone should check out “Talent is Overrated” as well. Reading these earlier this year were both instrumental in developing the mindset that I can still make it as far as I want, despite a lack of junior golf success.
Very on point stuff, I’ve never heard of The Talent Code, who’s the author of that? Everything that is being contributed on the thread reinforces to me the nature of skill. Skill is 100% learned and is what we are dealing with when it comes to golf. Some have a higher potential than others and a little different learning curve but nothing here is natural in any way or innate.
In the HBO documentary on Coach Wooden he said he took the UCLA job sight unseen and after first seeing the condition of the gymnasium and basketball facilities he went home and told his wife that he had made a huge mistake and it was Mrs Wooden who insisted they stay in California and make a go of it. Coach didn’t believe he was capable of making basically a start up program successful in the shadow of Cal and Stanford especially so far from his home.
Yesterday John Smoltz was on PTI talking about his first experience playing in a professional golf tournament last week when he played in the Nationwide Event. He shot 84-87 & missed the cut by 27 shots. He was incredibly gracious and showed a lot of guts going on national TV to discuss what happened & I thought what he said was extremely telling. What I’d like to get into are some of the differences between golf and tournament golf and the nature of preparing yourself to not only succeed at tournament golf but to be able to manage ‘the explosion’ where everything falls to pieces and you are left with seemingly nothing but your wits, if even that. Everyone who ever wants to be a successful tournament player will experience this more times than they would care to.
The first thing Smoltz said that was of note was that his first round took 27 hours to complete and had 5 weather delays. He said he totally lost his patience and lost his feel and trust for his swing. He said he lost his trust for his mechanics his distance control and everything else possible. Next Tony asked him what he expected to shoot and John replied that he shot a pair of 73s in the practice rounds and was expecting something similar to that. What he said next I thought was absolutely the most telling part of the interview and a great insight into the difference between a golfer and a tournament player. Smoltz said he was a rhythm player and was never able to find anything close to a rhythm while playing the event. Now this is John F. Smoltz saying this, anybody who has ever seen this guy pitch knows that he is one of the toughest most clutch athletes in the world. This guy is money and has one of the best playoff records in the history of baseball. And he’s been a +2 golfer for like 20 years or close to it. So I’d love to have some takes on what happened here. I’ve got my own thoughts but I’m interested in digging pretty deep here, I hope John doesn’t mind… 
I’m guessing he actually did find some rhythm, but it wasn’t the rhythm he’s used to or wanted. It was probably much quicker and usually when that happens it only speeds up more as the “unwanted” starts to happen. Golf is a game where trying harder and faster tends to hurt you unlike some of the other sports.
Nerves (in my case anyway) will speed things up which in turns throws off the timing element. I don’t know many folks who slow down when they’re nervous. Isn’t this the reason beta-blockers are on “the list”?
That’s my take L,
robbo
I agree with Robbo. The problem with golf as I see it, is that it requires such extended periods of high level “flat line” concentration without a lot of extraneous distraction to buffer the performance anxiety that naturally occurs. Additionally, you have to be acutely aware of how your mood is manifesting itself physically, because in Golf we don’t want quantities of massive of peaks and valleys in terms of emotions. Most other sports, you play for a little while, you get benched to take a rest, you have innings, periods, quarters, time outs whatever. Also, in most other sports, you have a team you can rely on to back you up and take up the slack during times of pressure/stress etc…You have rowdy crowds, music, team-mate support, many other variables that you can draw on to manage your emotional state. It’s a completely different emotional animal than most other sports.
Golf for me when I played competitively in my teens had a way of just TEARING me down, because there was so little to buffer the natural reactions you deal with when you’re not playing well. I mean, it’s not like the coach is gonna call you outta the game and replace you on hole 12. For me, the silence and solitude of the surroundings was just deafening when things weren’t going well. It’s almost like fight or flight, because when things aren’t going well, you’re natural reaction is to get the hell away asap from whatever is causing the discomfort. So everything gets sped up, negative thoughts, walking pace, swing pace, club selection etc… It’s almost like the game of Golf challenges every natural emotional, physical and chemical reaction to negative stimulus that has evolved in humans to protect us from harm. And to me the two factors are the solitary nature of the game coupled with the long term repeated exposure to the (negative) stimulus. I think the brain is wired a certain way to deal with these situations, and it’s not conducive to playing a game based on accuracy and judgment like Golf.
I was telling Bom the other day that my son and I had the opportunity to follow Angel Cabrerra for 7 or 8 holes at the Texas Open a few weeks ago. I never really paid much attention to Cabrerra, but that day I really drew a lot of inspiration from him that will last me for the rest of my playing days. His body language on the course is really something to behold if you know what too look for. The biggest thing that struck me about him is that he NEVER seems to look down at the ground. He’s always looking straight ahead, as if the course is a living breathing entity he’s fighting, and he’s looking at it in the eye to make sure it’s not gonna take a swipe at him while he’s not looking. His walking pace was always the same, the time he took to select clubs was always the same. The best description I can think of is to say that he seemed to be much less attached to the nature of the result and much more attached to the consistency and pace of the process than the other players. It was just really interesting.
Andy
Actually I don’t think Smoltz is a rhythm player. He’s a fast player, has learned to play fast, probably plays on courses where he doesn’t have to wait, uses a cart, gets it done and gets on with his day. If he was a rhythm player he would be able to call upon it under adverse conditions. The Tour seems to be all about slow play and most (or some) of them learn how to deal with that adversity. Carbrera, a fast player, played well behind Kevin Na in Texas when he was communing with nature and carding a 16 on that one hole. Today, McIlroy mentioned he talked to Greg Norman about his Masters meltdown and Greg told him he had to learn how to slow everything down–walking, pulling clubs, thinking, etc. Rory plays fast and had to put on the breaks on the back nine that Sunday. Tiger when he was playing his best talked about slowing the game down. If there is anything one could learn in golf, learning this would be something I’d spend a lot of time trying to master. Perhaps play on munis on a Saturday afternoon. I give Smoltz credit for trying but I think he is overmatched nonetheless. Those Nationwide guys can bring it.
I actually watched Kevin’s meltdown firsthand on # 8 while following Cabrerra…if ever there was a case for TRGA rules speeding up play, that was it!
Andy
Daniel Coyle. amazon.com/Talent-Code-Great … 055380684X
The Talent Code focuses a lot on the development of myelin (the coating on nerves) and how the body develops it. In his book, Coyle basically relates “skill level” to the amount of myelin sheathing on one’s nerves in the relevant areas of the brain. It was an interesting read. I think Colvin’s book “Talent is Overrated” came to a stronger conclusion and had better examples, but the two go well together. “The Talent Code” is on my rotation of good audio books for the range.
To me, Ben Hogan is the perfect golf example of the “Talent is Overrated” principle, when you think of how many times he failed in the process of becoming immensely successful. I would point to him as one of the first people in the game to ever really maximize the application of “deliberate practice” (concept discussed in Talent is Overrated) to become world class over the course of time. His practice routine allowed him to reach the 10,000 hour/10 year mark quicker than most, especially in the 1940’s in professional golf.
I don’t personally think Smoltz is overmatched. I haven’t ever seen him play but I don’t see any reason why he couldn’t turn himself into a Nationwide or Champions Tour caliber player. First of all probably the two athletic motions that translate best to golf are a power pitcher in baseball and an NFL place kicker so the mechanics are there or at least available and a winner is a winner in my book. What I’m getting after is the root differences between recreational golf and tournament golf because they are two completely different games. Everyone here at ABS is working on an open to square to open move which is the most difficult move in the game to master yet no one ever discusses application which is the reason Hogan developed this move in the first place.Hogan figured this move out out of dire necessity to get the damn ball in the hole under the most difficult tournament conditions where failure meant he and his wife didn’t have money for food or gas to get home. This move is rooted in faith and fire and I can’t imagine why anyone would want to take all this time and sweat to learn it if they didn’t have some sort of desire to test it in tournament conditions. And that’s what I want to delve into herr
Bobby Jones wrote in Down the Fairway that he lost about 5 lb a day when he was playing a tournament. His description therein is the best I’ve ever read of the very tangible differences between the two kinds of golf. John Smoltz got his first introduction to what Jones knew so well. It stepped up and slapped him in the face. That doesn’t mean he won’t ultimately become a successful tournament player. Doesn’t mean he will. But he learned that the skillset required is totally different than anything he’s ever seen. The thing is that mechanics are such a small part of being a good tournament player, less than 10%. Everything else is all about a great many things that I could list like a grocery list but wouldn’t mean anything to anyone other than myself. I see a vast resource here on the game of golf all about hitters and swingers, the mechanics of great golf moves, footwork and ground forces. That’s all well and good but I am way more interested in birdie on the last to win it all and more importantly getting there time after time. That’s a skill too and in my book everything else doesn’t add up to a lot if I don’t know how to bring my best when it matters most.
Personally, I think it to be relatively straight forward and not difficult at all if understanding and harnessing opposing forces are at the forefront of the intention process. It’s beauty is the simplicity by taking the complexity of timing and saving that aspect for those that wish to follow that terrain. ABS fits wonderfully with what accomplished ball strikers can do automatically: hook or slice on demand. Now I’m not sure how, when, or if Hogan specifically knew that he was actually doing 2 swings within one motion or not, but I would tend to believe that he had some notion of the process of net zero- or straight.
Faith, Fire and I will add Physics. Everywhere I look these days all I see are opposing forces not only in nature, but everything else too- so why should moving an instrument around our body be any different. Now obviously I can’t speak from a professional tournament perspective, but I can say that there are a few of us golfnuts that have been around the game for a long while yearning to really understand what made Hogan’s, and other’s, manner of moving the ball seem amazingly different. And we will be content to ride that horse into the sunset and collect a few skins along the way with a contented glow from within.
I think Two said this a while ago in some fashion somewhere and is how I feel now: my thoughts are many, but everything seems so clear at the same time- a good state to be in I think. 
And that’s why I asked you to start this thread, to discuss the application of this move as you see it and delve into it. Why would anyone take all this on? Well, most of us are here because we’re above-average passionate about improving our game. We’re going to be a passionate anyway, we might as well work on the correct things. And I think most of us here, you included, know this is a very special place and is leading us in the right direction to becoming better ballstrikers, perhaps even superior. What we do with it is a choice each of us make.
I have no doubt Smoltz has most of the mechanical ability–though I still think he is lacking as compared to the pro circuit. He seems farther behind in the intangibles. All props to him, a great pitcher. Don’t know, even with his athletic ability, if it translates to elite golf.
LCDV wrote:
The fact that a guy who had handled such pressure successfully in baseball, but could do this is incredible. And it is one more piece of evidence that proves golf is different from football, baseball, basketball etc. It increases my respect for the folks who play and have played successfully on these various tours.
I am interested in what Smoltz should do. Assuming his swing/game is good enough…what can he do when he’s under the gun to pull his golf performance up to we saw him do on the mound?
Hi jrich,
By being here you will at least be receiving different information from the majority of the many thousands of aspiring pros & that may give you the edge you will need. To my mind your chance is increased by treading a different path to the top rather than seeking to become among the best of those going the mainstream route. It could be that Lag & TM will produce some really premium ball strikers with a workable edge against their peers, maybe it will be you (or son of Chaos ?? ) or maybe you will be ideally placed in 10 years time to capitalise on a Persimmon Tour by having a different tool box of skills & youth on your side.
Absolutely. I cannot recall ever seeing anyone my age who could really flush it with their irons consistently, and out here we have quite a few high-caliber high school players, some of which I know fairly well, and most of which I’ve played with or watched. Most of the successfull juniors out here hit it 315 and give themselves lob wedges into everything. A few guys on my team hit driver-7 iron into all of the Par 5’s, and our course is longer than a lot of the ones we play even in summer tournaments.
Even if I move up to a distance where I can hit driver-mid iron into the 5’s and driver-wedge into all the 4’s, I think that this is a way more stressful way to play. Once I have an iron game I can depend on, I’d rather hit one 270 off the tee and hit 7, 8, and 9 irons at pins all day. I’d still make my share of birdies, but more importantly I’d make a lot of pars. To me, boring golf = happy golf.
I remember a tournament last summer I played in that a teammate of mine one where he had 3 or 4 birdies and an eagle in 18 holes, yet shot 72. I’m not sure I’d survive that kind of emotional rollercoaster. I’d rather be the guy that goes out there and makes a birdie and a bogey for 72, as opposed to constantly picking up and dropping shots.
I’m sure I wouldn’t have been as wise as you, jrich, if I played golf at your age. It’s easy to say ‘you guys have the internet’ but as you say most all your colleagues just don’t ‘get it’.
But maybe they do–for it’s a bit silly in pro golf that following a first place by a last place will land you more pay than tieing second twice, even if it’s just one shot behind the winner each time.
At least world rankings seem to reward consistency a bit better.
Ok… let’s get back on topic. This thread is about how to shoot 65 not 72… BIG difference (and it’s more than just 7 shots).
Where are we going next LCD?