Here is the article in PDF
advancedballstriking.com/p.pdf
advancedballstriking.com/p1.pdf
advancedballstriking.com/p2.pdf
advancedballstriking.com/p3.pdf
They mixed up the shaft flex pics on the opening page which I fixed, and I took out the advertisement for some metal frying pan which I would not endorse. It’s painful enough for me to see the model using a frying pan, believe me… Al and I submitted some nice swings of me out at Mare which they chose not to use, much to my disappointment! 
Thats quite funny Macs, cause to the best of my knlowledge you have only seen 4 Module 7 students swings here (including your own), so 2 out of 4 isn’t bad.
NRG
True! but I can only comment on something I have seen.
There are actually 20 students on module 7 right now… but a lot of them are not active on the forum. I wish they would be of course, but I don’t require it to participate. I am sure most of them do read here, and I am sure that the interaction that does take place here is beneficial and appreciated.
I have been messaging this topic in my brain for quite a while. It took a while to find my brain, but when I did… this article stuck on me because it taunts the devil’s advocate within me and it’s something I have toyed with for a while… in fact maybe many of us here have done so.
One of the wonderful things I’ve concentrated on is: What truly makes someone better suited for SWINGING vs. HITTING?
The obvious things come to mind. The things we’ve all heard before. How are you built? Are you a man of rhythm ? etc.etc.
I must have read Lag’s article 10 times. I enjoyed it and found it wonderfully worded and kind of smiled to myself at how impartial it was when I know what Lag prefers. But this set me on looking at much broader materials for answers.
One thing I do find funny is that many people we, or experts classify as one or the other have no idea they are being classified as such and probably have all sorts of elements that fall outside the descriptions set forth by people like Homer. In fact most pro’s exhibit signs of both hitting and swinging to some varying degrees and yet here they are, mixing water with oil, and doing great with it.
It makes me wonder if we (generally speaking) put too much merit in this categorizing and analyzing. I mean if the pro’s don’t give a crap if there hinge style suites their drive pattern… is it really worth looking at?
I had a guy the other day (who is knowledgeable in things TGM related) tell me I am swinging. I asked him why he thought that. He gave me a VERY solid, and backed up list of things that I could not deny. And then I asked him, “How do you know my intentions?” He didn’t have an answer for that. We discussed this for a while and he kind of ended up repeating the ‘signs’ I gave of a swinger. He said he’d call it about a 70 percent to 30 percent ration of swinging to hitting.
I then realized I how deceptive all this crap is. I mean I am NOT even arguing what the guy is visually reporting to me. I’m just realizing that to a large degree it is B.S. Not what he is saying… but what it means. He can tell me for instance that my swing is too long back to support a hitters right arm, but he doesn’t know I’m dead weighting the club down to my belt line and I push so hard with my right arm my shoulder socket is on fire after about 10 drives in a row… Nope, he can’t “see” that burning in my right arm. That was just one example of what I meant about what someone might see, vs what my actual INTENTIONS are.
I kept kind of probing for answers, for my own answers. Am I better suited for swinging or hitting? Are there things that I should be subscribing to that perhaps I overlook because they are in the WRONG ‘category’? (IE: Don’t pull the club in anyway or I might wake up a swinger. Keep that type of action up and I’ll be wife swapping in no time.)
So in between my researches, and reading, I would revisit Lag’s article. I don’t want to drag this out with my own experiments, and failures in the last month or so, but I have to be honest the more -deeply- I dive into this stuff, the more I think I question it’s validity. I go back to the tour pro that doesn’t know hitting from swinging. I could point to a ton of pro’s that show us signs of conflict. That do one thing, but say the other. And I am really questioning the value in pursuing a mechanic that feels awkward and produces poor results BUT it suits a category I fall into and therefore should adopt.
On the other hand I know of certain feels. And these feels usually mean “good” or “bad”. They don’t mean swing or hit, but they’re more result oriented. So I have to really wonder if it’s worth even asking the question: Swinging or hitting?
I realized I’m posting this to a largely TGM stoked crowd. So be gentle. 
Thanks for putting up the article, Lagpressure.
Finally I could read it too. I was surprised to find so many familiarities between TGM hitting and ABS hitting in the article. The body type discussion, the faster moving hands because of angled hinging to mention a couple. There must still be a lot of TGM in you, Lag 
Prot,
There are some swingers who are so clear cut that you can see that they are swingers and there are hitters who are definitely hitters. But a lot of golfers are inbetween those and it is hard to tell which they are doing. Those who are most difficult to spot are those who have a swinger’s pivot but still fire their hands through impact. It is very hard to tell the difference when Lynn Blake, aka Yoda swings and hits the ball.
This is the telling x- ray
you need a high speed camera for absolute confirmation. Otherwise, it’s just “elephant talk”
Hitting on left Swinging on right
Man that is a blast from the past. How old is that picture? That takes me right back to iSeek days. Debating, and trying to understand the heart of these things.
I played with swinging solidly for 2 weeks. I am now done. It’s not for me; I know that now, BUT I actually believe the experience helped me defined hitting better! I have to say, even my backswing ‘feels’ differently and certainly the first part of the downswing. (very different…between hitting and swinging).
To this day I remember that first day in the middle of damn brutal winter on a totally empty range full of snow and frost everywhere… and I started using my right arm for the first time in the swing.
Thanks for the pics Lag.
In a frozen kind of way (and I don’t mean just temperature-wise)?
I think more insightful words would be hard to find. If we know where the dark is, it is easy to see where the light is!
I too remember first finding ISEEK last year and Lag’s insights embedded within them. What an eye opener for me to finally hear someone who knew how the best of the best approched things. Prior to finding ISEEK and then Lag, I thought I knew what the best of the best were doing for the most part, but I was wrong in some areas…some of them critical.
But knowing how to execute motion using either a TGM hit or swing is profoundly beneficial in being able to understand the differences between TGM and ABS.
What continues to bother me however is something I still don’t fully understand. Why can’t the “experts” in TGM on ISEEK or LBG see that saving R arm is paramount to precision and not subject to timing in contrast to their swinging manifesto which endorses: “let’s create this FLW component via intention and nirvana will be on your doorstep.” I just don’t get how they fail to see this. They must not like their lunch money 
RR
The TGM hitting is so well entrenched as a term and yet at polar opposites to ABS. I really believe that Lag calling ABS a hitting procedure does a disservice. We know its a golf swing from a very deep slot (P3) that encompasses the hand hit because it can. Call it “Deep Swing”; “Soul Swing” “Advanced Swing” or an “ABS Golf Motion”. How about AGM (Advanced Golf Motion) 
. But IMO dont call it “Hitting” as it creates a lot of confusing discussion. Lets look at it this way. What is the evolutionary pathway leading to ABS? Swinging or TGM Hitting? I think you inch up in various steps through a path that along the way looks more like TGM swinging. From a TGM hitting plateform you will never morph into ABS.
And while I am on this rant, let me express something that I havent had the courage so far as I am not an expert on TGM or the BOOK. In my opinion the closest Homer came to an ABS motion may be right hand swinging" . I am back into my armour so go ahead, shoot me.
If this is a TGM right arm swing… then what would a TGM “right arm only swing” be where the right arm passively straightens post impact as fundamentally taught in TGM? Ultra swing?
Some TGM expert bail me out but I think Right Arm swinging is described as with an extrememly Pitched elbow which ectually becomes the fulcrum of the swing and not the left shoulder. I have been thinking about this. In ABS with our upper arms packed onto the chest the shoulders are actually not the fulcrum of the swing. Its kind of like the swing fulcrum is the right elbow from P3 to post impact; then the left elbow upto P4 and only after P4 the left shoulder becomes the fulcrum when the arms fly off the chest. I think that is also the reason the low point is so much related to the bent right elbow.
Sorry i haven’t visited the forum in some time. I’ve taken a few months off of golf after a long and aggressive effort to play on the mini tour, and then a ramp-up in my business. As for Macs’ post, i’m not sure i’ll ever reach the pinnacle. I know my GIR’s have improved a lot, but “pinnacle”? I think there are only a handfull of golfers on this planet who reached the pinnacle. Here is my swing from april and august… I don’t really have anything more recent. My plan is to get back to training/practicing a lot again in February:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CeUBhybyy0[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9acKUsI55SI[/youtube]
As for my time with ABS prior to my recent break, I just worked VERY HARD on the mods, and play competitive rounds as much as possible. I’ve come to find that what i’m feeling from the modules and in the swing are a bit different than others’ opinions, so i just try to keep it as simple as possible–much less cerebral.
But about three months ago I had my worst rounds since starting ABS, and realized it correlated with over thinking things. I usually never over-think and then I found myself WAY over analyzing on the course, and in turn, I had a couple rounds in the 80’s during some critical rounds that kind of demoralized me.
Before this break, ABS had significantly improved my GIR’s, and I was playing my best golf. In attempt to keep this post concise, I’d say the primary difference (which is a result of many different things lag has taught me to significantly increase my pivot speed and hand strength) in my current swing is that I have NO RIGHT ARM action in the impact area, but plenty of right hand action. Prior to this it was the opposite: my right arm was very active, yet my right hand was dead–it was almost completely off of the club at impact.
That’s a very good thing to note.
I have been in a groove where I have good right arm action. And after some time, I’ll notice I lost it. I immediately have to go back to slow mod 1 work and note a bent right arm into the bag. I think trying to kill it leaves me with this issue. Personally if my arms are ‘trying too hard’ then my pivot won’t be in position to act as a launch pad for the right arm and the right arm has left the building.
I think you have a very nice looking iron swing Parker. It takes balls to put it up on the forum. Good for you. 
yep, my arms don’t do anything until my pivot is spent–all pivot and hands.
Right arm action before p4 would be an accuracy killer in my ABS swing.
My mini slump was all putting… my head got in the way… i had weeks of nightmares involving poa annua grass and wishing putting didn’t count in this wonderful game—haha, i wish i was kidding. funny thing is that putting used to be my best stat.
I just want to say that you do seem very confident with what you’re doing which I think is excellent, but one thing you said really rings true to me… the less cerebral aspect of it all.
I think if there’s something I get lost in on this site, and ABS in general is when people analyze the be-jesus out of… .where your left testicle is at PV5 or something similar. Of course I’m making that up but that’s sort of the stuff I got stuck on myself. So when you say you’re not very cerebral about it… well I think deep down I’m very much the same way.
When things are going bad for me, I will do a module and a really basic feel comes out of that, and if I can replicate that really basic thing… then I think 9 times out of 10 I’m usually doing better because of it.
Don’t get me wrong, I know some people here really know what Homer Kelley’s stuff and Lag’s stuff. But when I flash back to things Lag got me going on that worked… it just seemed so simple, and I read some of these posts and their just way too analytical for me… and therefore pointless because if I get muddled in that stuff I lose.
It’s a very good point you bring to the table, and it’s why I mostly just lurk now. I find stuff on my own now, and it is very basic. I play with very tiny moves now, and discard the poop and move on. I think this honestly is the first time I can recall someone saying that they keep it as simple as possible… period. That’s where I’m at.
P.S.
As for Poa Annua I can relate to a degree (though I’m no pro player). I consider myself an excellent putter, and I play at two main course. One is PGA-ish on the stimp and has some great bent grass. I love it. I average 28 putts there… the other is Poa and I can’t stand it. It completely screws my confidence. I think it makes me putt differently because I’m putting on cotton… so I just slam it to the hole. I don’t know, but I can’t stand it. I quit the course. lol! (true)
Let me ask you one other thing Parker…
At my best with ABS I was hitting extremely straight, but shorter with the driver because I really did not use my arms. I’ve always had a strong (too strong) Pivot, but removing my arms hurt my driver play. Was there an adjustment for you in driver, or distance, or any comment on that sort of thing as you transition to ABS? (For instance, I started hitting driver MUCH lower)… anything you could tell us about that sort of thing? or was it a very easy transition for you with a modern driver?
Lag,
in some posts you talk about how overly stiff shafts are okay for control. When tinkering around with overly stiff shafts i had less problems loading them when using more of a hitters approach than i did with a swingers approach (it always feels that when swinging and my shafts are too stiff i cant get a proper strike on the ball due to problems loading the shaft in the first place). Whats your take on that? Would you say that a swinger should have a shaft stiffness that is more accurate for his swing speed than a hitter who can handle a bigger variance?
You are correct.
Swingers, have are faced with the difficult task of being required to time the straightening of the shaft precisely at impact. To do this effectively, they need to be able to not only feel the clubhead, but the movement of the shaft also (flex)
Looser shafts allow much more feel and tolerance for a swinger… but the flip side is that a loose shaft if not delivered properly can wreak all kinds of havoc on the golf ball. If you are going to swing… then there are some good practice clubs like that “Orange Shaft” that will teach you how to wait and feel the whip of the shaft at the bottom.
Hogan said he hated feeling any play in the shaft at all… of course he was a hitter. He also played tipped X shafts even into his 70’s.
Popular opinion is that X shaft are only for long or powerful hitters… but I disagree.
A stiff shaft will offer better support to the clubhead to resist the forces of impact. It puts more precision feel into your hands just after impact… and they are less likely to ever feel wobbly or out of control at anytime… but the most important factor is that they are going to offer better DISTANCE control. Loose shafts can sometimes give you that super flyer that sails over the green into usually a very undesirable recovery attempt.
Think of it this way…
Long hitters put in X shafts… but they usually also put them into their short irons… which means they are going to be playing pitch shots, chip shots, even bunker shots with them also. Knock downs and less than full shots are going to be played. These shots are the same intensity shots played by weaker players.
If your only objective is distance, and you want to be one of those players that brags about how you hit PW from 150,
then you should swing and use loose shafts 
… but any serious refined player should be looking at moving into stiffer shafts, and better yet into heavier heads… and if you really want to hit it straight… flatter lie angles also.
