Going flat

I have a set of the Wilson ButtonBacks (early 70’s) and they have the stiff ‘dynalite’ shafts with the red bands. I think your shafts are a different variety…
I think that the ‘R’ may stand for regular, but am not sure. I’d put in some nice and heavy taper tipped True Temper Dynamic Gold X200’s if I were you.
There’s a wealth of information on reshafting in the equipment section of this forum, but if you have specific questions, feel free to PM me.

Thanks. I agree that there is a wealth of information–so much that I feel like I need to index things so I can find them again. This will be my first foray into clubmaking, but I’m fairly handy so I think I’ll be alright. I think my plan will be to start with Lags specs and try to model them to start. Should be fun, though I’m beginning to accumulate hobbies to an unsustainable level (I’m rebuilding my road bike at present)…

Amazing how flat these 1930’s Bobby Jones persimmons are bored. Don’t need to measure it to see it.

I have a question about going flat? I flattened a old set of blade irons the other day 1degree flatter than lags specs,just to see how I liked them, I hit them pretty well I thought,It made me have to really get down and thru the ball. took some getting used to,now can I go flatter yet,i guess how flat is too flat? I am no A.B.S er yet,not enough funds to join yet.I am self taught and have learned a lot by reading and I guess lurking in the back ground.Great site and Great reading guys Thanks.

Hard to say what is too flat… but most people can go a lot flatter than they initially think.
Best to do it gradually over time… and you’ll find what works best for you personally.
Of course you need a swing to match, and certain protocols must be adhered to… to fully
benefit from flat lie geometry.

Any idea the model number of that Wilson driver with stock 48° lie angle? Is it a decent block to put into play?

Holy crap. Bought a set from lagpressure. Had to go with the man himself. What’s too flat? F me. These are not easy to be consistent with. Possibly the best training aid I could ever ask for to hit the ball and turn hard. It’s a struggle. I had dreams of grabbing them and quickly finding that “aha” moment. Didn’t happen and shows how much work I have to do.

I don’t have time to play with 2 little ones and an overly busy schedule, but I do play on my simulator about 6 rounds a week. My gamer irons are Srixon 785s with 125 g project x LZ 6.5 shafts bent 2 degrees flat. Have had a hook I can’t beat for 10 years.

While the new ABS spec irons aren’t playable with my swing yet, they do give me a lot of return on investment. In a short time, I’ve pieced together what I can from watching every ABS video, reading all of Bradley hughes’ books and I’m getting some significant gains.

Hook is all but gone, ball speed is up, swing speed is up, strike is more pure, and I’m placing the ball on the number with consistency. I dream of golfing every night but haven’t had the chance. While it’s a game, I can say it’s challenging on the simulator. Just finished an 8 under and feels automatic.

What has worked… Connecting my swing to my torso is huge (cohesive body tensions) not being afraid to open my clubface in the takeaway has given me a connected shortgame with pure contact, consistent path, and pure strikes… Bowing to the 4:30 line and not firing to the ball until my elbow has "reconnected to my torso and my shoulders and hips turning the corner hard has given me a consistent low point, a much straighter path, and a square clubface.

For me the numbers don’t lie, and I see all my numbers getting better every day. The feels are creeping in slowly and my misses are yards not miles.

Excited for the day I show up to the course with 60 year old clubs that are bent to horizontal and play with precision. It feels inevitable.


My project this year is to work on my equipment. I’m currently playing Hogan Apex Channel backs that are 2 degrees flat with a Project X shaft.

I’d like to flatten them to six degrees and remove the offset … basically make them ABS friendly.

My plan was to take the 4 iron and do so before doing the entire set.

Is this a good way to transition? (I don’t have a back up set, so any major work would have to wait until the off-season.)

But what specs do I give a clubfitter? Just flatten them? Or does he need to make adjustments to length and weight too?


PS. My very first teacher played the Tour in the 60’s. He wanted me at six degrees flat THEN but no one would bend them. Everything old is new again.

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Correct, nothing new here.
I have a Wilson persimmon driver that is 48 degrees lie angle from the 1940’s right off the shelf. A lot of the old hickories are very flat going back over 100 years ago… and the irons then had zero offset.

I made a fatal error - I was “fit” by arguably the top PGA teaching pro around, with all the fancy technology you could ask for… he somehow talked me into “standard” lie… the fitting was 4 months ago. I’m not saying lie boards are fool proof, but I am saying that many people, including 3,4,5+ handicap players and teachers absolutely dismiss any notion of wanting or needing flatter lie angels… it’s like, if you’re regular height or maybe even a bit over, I don’t care what the numbers say, you want standard, or even upright. I’m just dumbfounded at the lack of true knowledge - and also mad at myself, ha!

I wouldn’t use lie boards - they’re not that accurate. High speed video systems are better, but cheapest and easiest is to put a vertical line on the ball, hit it, and see if the line is vertical on the clubface. You can do this on real grass too.

I’ve been incorrectly fitted for lie using the board - told to use 1* upright. I’m 6’3" with average length arms. On a good video system I was for into 3* flat… I don’t use either of those specs anymore though.

If you want to bend them flatter, do it! Doesn’t matter what the fitter said and you can bend them back if it doesn’t work. Start with one iron and experiment.

And you can play great golf hitting the ball with toe slightly up or down, so this obsession with getting it perfect is a waste of time. I shot some of my best scores years back with 6* flat irons. I hit them toe down and faded absolutely every shot. Worked great.

Practically usually trumps theory.

Thank you k2baloo - I could not agree more. At the time, I didn’t have access to high speed video, though could certainly put a line on the ball, which I have done before. Older irons I have used are 2-3* flat, and similar to you, have played some of my best golf. Lately, my shot pattern is 95% starting left, which is fine, but I’m pretty zeroed out (path), so I was suspicious… I should mention that I’ve been working a lot on left arm rotation (RH player) and feel that I’m producing a more “out is down” delivery, yet don’t feel that I would now be 2+ degrees flatter than just a few months ago… Anyway, I like what you said about practicality over theory. Hit 'em straight!

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Go as flat as you can… watch your divots… they will tell you everything you need to know…

Then work your swing to suit the new lie angles so you can enjoy the benefits of moving the left vector of possibilities closer to the target… it’s simple geometry, but I agree, most in the profession ignore geometry 101 in golf.

Not here…

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I actually maybe can go flatter than your specs. I like zero. I hit drivers off my knees today and I naturally always hit them straight as I could point. I used to think it was my legs not the flat!!
I noticed gripping the ground with my knees helped hit further too. Before ABS I used knee drives in club championship when I was spraying it. 240-250 guaranteed fairway😀. Here’s what I have now in my irons.

Very hard to hit the ball offline when hitting from your knees. If you make good contact, the ball is going straight.

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