If there were a golf ball on the floor, and you had to hit it with the “hammer”, you would not throw the hammer into the golf ball, you would fight the CF and smash the golf ball with tension in the wire. This is obviously going to extremes but that is how I think of it
And obviously the hammer doesn’t have a face on it, so the forearms wouldn’t need to fire actively though the strike as with a golf club
Also worth noting that the hammer weighs almost 16lb. If it weighed considerably less, the dynamics would be very different - nowhere near as athletic with less pressure into the ground and less activation of the big muscles. For example, as a thought experiment, replace the heavy hammer ball on the wire with a tennis ball or even a ping pong ball - you would not be able to produce enough force to smash a golf ball on the ground and I think you would feel inclined to “throw into the golf ball”.
Yes, I admit Im not a seasoned ABS thru the modules student. I cannot give up 35 years of working w Ballard and go flatter in backswing. A big part of ABS that I have incorporated is
- Keeping pressure in the shaft ( shaft flex)
- Exit impact left with high right side (Orbit Pull)
Im not going to start debating @Crankus whether I have a skewed perspective on Orbit Pull. These guys that sit behind their computers and start some scientific ANALysis need to go hit some range balls already.
Orbit Pull w shaft flex>>>All I know I feel this shaft kicking and its a beautiful thang. Hands down changed my ball striking. Thanks @lagpressure
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I think a hammer thrower is the absolute peak definition of swinging. He’s literally letting it go on it’s own orbit as opposed to pulling it out of it’s orbit.
My understanding of John’s contention is that the golf club is going down, out, and forward in all golf shots. The golfer can either use CF and go with it (the club overtaking quicker, exiting more right, a quicker straightening of the trail arm, a more active clubface) or the golfer can resist CF and which will cause the club to exit more left, the trail arm will be pulling against the club so it is pulled out of its desired orbit, and the clubface will be in more of an angled hinge condition.
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It’s not a scientific analysis, it’s understanding the terms and concepts accurately as they are described within ABS.
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In the hammer throw the CF release is happening WAY up in the air - over the left shoulder in golf terms if you like… If you picture a golf ball on the ground in the GIF (where you might expect the ball to be), you would get a sense of how I would explain the orbit pull to feel through the impact area - using the resistance in the ground and the torso to “turn the corner” hard left.
Yeah, you’ve all got a bit of it right but lots you don’t understand. Tightening the screws etc.
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Can you explain more what you mean that the release is happening “over the left shoulder” in a “swinger” protocol? How do you know this? You’re describing a feel?
This is not what I was trying to say!
I posted a GIF of a hammer throw, where the athlete is spinning the hammer round and round and then releasing it down range. On the topic of what the ‘orbit pull’ feels like, my point was that I would describe the feeling as everything the athlete is doing prior to releasing the hammer.
I was trying to give a mental image of there being a golf ball on the floor in that GIF, and that you could picture the hammer just ‘collecting’ the golf ball on it way, long before the release of the hammer (the release of the hammer, in that GIF, looks like it would happening over the left shoulder if you were hitting a golf ball on the ground).
Grab your heaviest golf club and spin around like you are going to throw it hammer throw style, but don’t let go. You will find that you are constantly having to push and pull against the outward pull of the club in order to keep it ‘turning the corner’, and you will have to use your legs and torso very actively. That feeling of resistance in the ground and the work it takes to ‘turn’ the corner, is my mental picture of the orbit pull.
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I could be wrong, John would have to clarify, but I don’t think hitting is just swinging with the CF happening in a different direction. I believe it’s two completely different things with the hitter, as he describes it, actively holding off and redirecting the centrifugal pull by a centripetal resistance. Literally pulling the club out of its natural and desired orbit. Your description makes it sound like it’s just swinging, but instead of letting it throw out downplane you let it throw out over the shoulder. That’s not what I’m getting from John’s ABS discussions.
Someone who John would term a swinger, like Mickelson for example, doesn’t physically let the club go either. He’s still pulling on it inwardly just as a hammer thrower is doing prior to release. And the ball is hit prior to the full rightward release or the clubface rotation.
I’m by no means claiming that hitting is just swinging with the CF release happening in a different direction. I only put the hammer throw idea forward as a mental ‘cue’, particularly the action prior to the release. I think we should just drop this as we’re clearly miles apart on this one.
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We’re miles apart in what way? Hitting vs swinging clearly has a black and white concrete meaning in the ABS conventions. I just want to make sure we’re all on the same page regarding the concepts and terminology. If we aren’t and we’re discussing different things then I would think that’s a problem.
I agree…I would like to know, for clarification, what John believes to be the differences mechanically or with regard to forces applied, between swinging and hitting. Is it really like this:
Ok I think I follow what you mean. You are saying that if your body is making the kind of movement we are seeing in the hammer throw, and you wanted to hit a golf ball with it, you would do so by pulling against the outward momentum of the hammer, such that the cable was taught, and guide the hammer into the golf ball. What you would not do is let go of the hammer/cable and let the hammer fly into the ball.
Is that correct?
I get that the “orbit pull” is a force exerted to counter or oppose the outward movement of the club head.
Using your hammer throw analogy, are you saying that a “swingers protocol” for golf is letting go of the hammer and letting it smash into the ball, and a “hitters protocol” is opposing the outward momentum of the club and directing the orbit of the club into the ball, while still holding the cable of the hammer tight?
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Yes! That was essentially my point!
There are obvious flaws in the hammer throw analogy though. For one, in the hammer throw the right arm is fully extended throughout the motion, which is not desirable for hitting a golf ball. But whilst the right arm is straight in the hammer throw, at least it is not straightening. The hammer throw analogy also breaks down when it comes to the uncocking of the wrists and the forearm rotation into the strike (as there really isn’t any). But my personal view is that as it relates to the ground pressures, torso rotation, and resistance against the outwards CF, the hammer throw gives a good mental image of the feeling through the strike and post impact.
I need to say at this point that I am not an ABS student and I am not claiming to be any more than someone that agrees with the protocols promoted by ABS!
Imagine if the hammer thrower didn’t swing the ball around on a constant plane but instead introduced a wobble up and down and up and also tightened the radius. Imagine how much more feel the golfer would have.
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