GEARS 3D Modeling System

Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking
84

Or they just didn’t know how to teach?

I have a lot of respect for Nick Clearwater and one thing he says frequently is something along the lines of: “You want to know the biggest dirty secret of the golf instruction industry? Most teachers don’t know how to teach.” And it’s true.

Too many golf instructors grow up playing, get pretty good, and then can’t get past a certain level. Golf is what they know so they start teaching. But instead of developing it as a craft, they just repeat what they’ve tried, what they observe, what they read in a magazine or heard on tv, or whatever else. They give lots of really bad lessons and it’s just hit or miss. And the lucky ones get an athletic junior or an accomplished player who is a thoroughbred and who’s going to be good no matter what you tell them and all of a sudden they look like a great teacher because they spent 5 years telling them to chop down on it or roll their ankles. It’s trash, it’s an embarrassment, and it gives golf instructors/the industry as a whole a bad reputation. And then you have guys out there spending $100,000 of their own money developing a legitimate teaching studio, traveling, going to seminars, researching, studying, getting certified in various things, and putting the puzzle together and really learning what they’re doing and 80% of the industry calls them idiots, tells them it’s all hocus pocus and you just need to dig it out of the dirt, and says they can see it with the naked eye, and then, when those guys actually figure some ego it are stuff out those same “roll your ankles and keep your left arm straight” guys are the first to pop up and say they knew whatever it was all along. It’s truly absurd.

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85

So who would you send your aspiring child to go see tomorrow for a 2 year commitment of golf lessons?

86

I am all for technology in the right hands and personally think John could do great things with gears, but then again, it might not be up to scratch. But even the most brilliant technology in an average Joe instructors hands would do nothing for students, just a bunch of numbers and guessing what to do next. A brilliant mirror won’t make you beautiful.

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87

I think thats why I like what John and Brad have done here. Some of my best lessons were from X Tour players. Terry Florence was a great section player in SC and ended up a teacher at Wild Dunes. His instruction affirmed me going to Jimmy Ballards covering the ball technique which led me to the horizontal Moe Norman explanation of shaft flex. Finally it all came together with more seasoned Tour players John Erickson and Bradley Hughes “orbit pull”

Timeline

  1. Terry Florence x-tour player
  2. Jimmy Ballard taught Strange, Sutton, Colbert, Lyle, Rocco and many more
  3. Moe Normans horizontal tug
  4. ABS Orbit pull

Took 35 years to get here and Trackman was never used or anything but video.

**The key to me was “pressure in the shaft” and technology I really doubt could teach me that reality. So, saying a player can only take u to a level of their skills is fine with me if thats the limit. Soak up from the best then :sunglasses::+1:

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88

Here’s a bit of a Hogan lore that speaks to his ball striking prowess. One of the local golf professionals in Pittsburgh was named Ray Grabowski. Ray played in the 1965 PGA the year Dave Marr won. Ray was our professional near retirement when I joined.

Anyway I asked him about a bunch of the players from the Nelson, Hogan, Snead era. He told me about having the opportunity to play several times with Hogan. Most notably, was when Ray played a practice round with Hogan at Laurel Valley.

He told me that he had never seen anyone hit the ball as precisely as Hogan. Didn’t missed a fairway or green was Ray’s recollection. Hogan would come up routinely 20 yard short of everybody else’s drives on the par fours, but then hit it 20 yards past everybody on the par fives. Meaning he had different gears. Hogan was in his mid fifties at the time.

Ray also said that he saw the most amazing shot of his professional career from Hogan at Laurel. Number eight that year I was playing 235 yards from the back tee, and in the practice round the pin was cut back left. He said they all got up there and sprayed it around where one of them in the group was at the front of the green where they a 60+ foot putt. They other two were chipping, and Hogan hit it to about 3 fee with a 3-wood.

If that wasn’t an amazing enough he said that Hogan walked to the front of the green while everyone was marking their balls and asked if he could putt out. Of course Mr. Hogan was the reply. Hogan with the putter in his right hand proceeded to hit the ball while never breaking stride.

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89

This is just a partial list off the top of my head and in no particular order: Jon Sinclair, Michael Jacobs, Mike Granato, Shaun Webb, Nick Clearwater, Jon Hardesty, Jeff Pierce, Dennis Sales. There are plenty of others I could list and be comfortable with.

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90

Which is strange because Jimmy Ballard teaches a down the line and roll the clubface release. It’s right in his book. And Moe learned from Paul Bertholy for years which is where he got his vertical drop and horizontal tug from verbatim. And Paul 100% taught a swinging technique with active face rotation. I have Bertholy’s book which is rare and hard to find (and criminally underrated or unheard of in golf instruction for the most part). Neither seems to mesh with what John is teaching here to be honest.

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91

U totally missed my point

The main thing i learned from all my teachers was

Maintaining shaft flex. All three talked about that reality as did all the students I mentioned

Bradley and John ABS fits perfectly

Ballard = spring the shaft
Moe= horizontal tug (online only w Graves)
ABS = Orbit Pull

92

Yes Bertholy taught pull butt of club retaining angles.

Can u set up a gears technology on a hockey swing?

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93

Gears is used in other sports, but I think hockey would have some limitations with it being played on ice. As far as the motion capture certainly it would be possible, but the other considerations would make it difficult to set up I would think. You would probably have to email gears to get an answer to that question.

94

I’m sorry, but I have to stick on this point. Jimmy Ballard doesn’t talk at all about maintaining shaft flex. He talks about bending the shaft aggressively in transition in a toe up plane by releasing from the top, or throwing, with the hands and arms. I’ve got the book and I’ve got the videos. And he doesn’t talk at all about pulling the club out of its rightward orbit, working the hands left post impact, or having the clubface in an angled hinge condition. He talks about actively releasing “down the line of flight” and turning the clubface over into a horizontal hinge condition. That is the opposite of orbit pull. And Bertholy, 100 times in his book, talks about using centrifugal force, swinging without tension, eliminating the hit impulse, and spinning the shaft post impact so you could catch raindrops in your left palm. That’s the opposite of hitting, tension, or pulling the club out of its natural orbit.

95

I think ur partially correct only in regards to throwing down the line (maybe higher handicaps). Which causes some confusion I agree.

I just talked to Ballard Monday and he really liked what Im doing with the Orbit Pull.

Basically his center drill in the book is the Orbit Pull imo.

@lagpressure @twomasters

96

I think this thread has strayed off topic. It started essentially (and forgive me if I’m oversimplifying here) because Jeff Mann and his cheeky little sidekick wanted John to get on GEARS and show them how shaft flex is held in a “full swing” (“full swing” being according to their definition of “x” amount of wrist cock, “x” amount of backswing length, tempo etc etc etc) - the point of which being that they might learn something new.

So my question to everyone here is this: do we think that is worthwhile?

Jeff Mann suggested we crowdfund John’s trip to somewhere with a GEARS system. Do people want to see that and would it make a good BBG video?

@lagpressure John, as Jeff put it, it might well cause a “furore” in instructional circles…

Obviously the caveat here is that we need to be sure that GEARS is actually capable of measuring shaft flex being held into the strike, and I’m more than a little confused as to whether or not we’ve established that.

If we think it is, I’ll happily match the crowdfunding suggestion, as I’m sure others would be, and get John where he needs to be for a few days, with comfortable hotel and tasty meals to boot!!

My personal view is that this exercise is not necessary… But I’m appreciative of the fact that there are others that take a different viewpoint and it would be kind of cool to see what may come of it…

97

Gears 100% for sure measures shaft deflection, droop, and twist I believe in hundredths of a millimeter. There are multiple videos of what’s being measured if you scroll down past the descriptions:

98

This is the only thing that really interests me. Hitting technique definitely has a different effect on golf shafts and hollow head designs with trampoline/ultra thin faces. I “intuit” a relationship between strike, post impact release/acceleration, and total shaft deflection after the strike.

There seems to be an energy distribution backwards into the shaft again if you overstress a thin face, graphite 60g shaft.

99

And can GEARS measure pressure in the “tangential” direction (ie targetwards) particularly in the right hand during impact. As in, assuming the system correctly measures shaft flex at impact, which it should be able to do based on your post there, will it also be able to measure the forces that resulted in the shaft flexing at impact?

…really hoping this leads to a simple yes/no answer…

100

No. Gears is an optical system. It will not measure forces. It can simply measure the body and club in 3 dimensional space.

You can contact Michael Jacobs and discuss Jacobs 3D with him. His software can calculate forces and torques, both individual forces and torques as well as the resultant net force which is the sum of the individual forces and torques. It is not directly measured though, it’s derived from mathematical formulas created by Dr. Steven Nesbit.

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101

That’s not how I remember it starting.

It was started by John, because he felt the previous thread (“Science Validates Erickson”) had sort of degenerated into endless arguments about what was or wasn’t visible on a video, and the tone of the discussion had become problematic. JE closed that thread and opened this one, asking for peoples’ ideas about GEARS, how it worked, and how it might be helpful for golfers.

I think it’s stayed pretty true to the spirit of the thread; some of the discussions and exchanges have lead us into discussing teaching in general, as well as other technology like Trackman, but I don’t think it’s gone very far afield.

102

But the question here is whether shaft flex is held, right? Whether the shaft is in lead or lag deflection? Not whether the golfer is maintaining pressure on the shaft or whether there is positive alpha torque being applied? Because those aren’t the same question.

103

Suppose I go out and purchase a high performance sports car. I want to know about the car and what it is capable of.

I take it to a measuring shop and they test the torque, the wheel speed, acceleration specs, how it might handle based upon pressure plates and I get 3D images of the car and scientific modeling of what it should be able to do.

I have all this information about my new car… I know all the specs, and everything about it.
However, I take it onto a track and get my butt kicked by seemingly inferior cars.

Maybe I am not a good track driver?

Now I have a problem with the car. It’s idling strange and seems sluggish off the line. Then I notice a weird rattle sound when I move into counter clockwise corner. It grows into a loud vibration.

I take it to an authorized mechanic and give him all the measuring spec sheets. He tells me a few things he thinks it might be. He orders some expensive parts and then finds out his suppliers are out of stock. I might have to wait a long time.

I sign up for top tier driving lessons for track cars and the instructor has accomplishments but has never driven my kind of car which is set up more for Grand Prix racing. His background is Formula 1… a different form and objective. He has suggestions but it doesn’t seem to help me.

I finally get my car back from the shop, but after driving it two more times on the track, the same problems arise and another problem surfaces with the braking system. It’s pulling to the left which is really dangerous.

The next week I meet a guy who has the same model car I have… and is an experienced racer, but it’s been customized. I asked him who did the work… he said… “I DID… I would never trust anyone else to work on my car”

He invited me to his shop and he tells me he is not only a driver but a mechanic also. He also knows ways to fabricate custom parts and has uniquely designed some upgrades that have solved some of the problems this model commonly has.

He tells me that my stock model actually accelerates too fast off the line and then loses compression in the gear box. He shows me how he fabricated a different gear system so the car can accelerate more evenly and over a longer period of time. This also takes some wear off the clutch and pressure, and re distributes the torque so it doesn’t damage other critical parts, particularly a left side suspension issue.

I tell him that he needs to take his car to the analyzing shop, but he says “you’d be better off understanding this car from the inside out, and learn to drive it.” Behind him are a wall of trophies and winner’s checks from past events. He says racing isn’t about the fastest car necessarily, it’s about positioning yourself properly and knowing how to move into the corners without softening your tires too much. He also told me a tip on how to pocket the car behind other cars to decrease wind drag and fuel consumption so that you can stretch your tank out and use it when you really need it.

I then realized that just getting data from my car’s performance wasn’t going to make me a better driver and that I needed to really take the deep dive into learning about how the engine works from the inside out and how to fix and upgrade it myself because it was clear that designers had some oversights in the stock engineering that needed to be retrofitted with something both more reliable and durable in the heat of competition.

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