I don’t understand your logic. Hogan eschewed the best technology of his day to analyze his swing. This is evidence against concluding that he would use today’s technology, not for it.
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I get the rationale of using something like gears, but unless you have an expert who knows what he is talking about telling you what to do, then what is the point? Are most teaching pros really that knowledgeable?
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And no one I know who uses Trackman or similar has improved. So really, what is the point.
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No, most teaching pros aren’t that knowledgeable. That’s a problem in my opinion. But there are a lot who are knowledgeable in golf swing biomechanics and it’s becoming more so every day.
But it really isn’t that hard to gain a moderately high level of proficiency with using launch monitor data. Especially if you work with an instructor regularly who uses it. The current generation of tournament players have grown up with instructors and they understand their swings from a technical standpoint and they’ve grown up using and learning with launch monitors since they were junior players. And it’s only going to become more the case as technology advances and becomes more affordable.
Like I said, there aren’t very many Tour players who aren’t on the range every week with their own launch monitors. They understand the data. Maybe they’re just looking at path, face, launch angle, and spin rate all the way to someone like Dechambeau who understands and uses all of it and is dipping heavily into the biomechanics, forces, clubbuilding physics, etc.
What technology did Hogan eschew? Video? There are numerous videos of Hogan. He made instructional clips and there’s at least one home video recording of him hitting balls and making slow motion swings that he made for a friend.
I can’t recall where I saw or read it, or if it was a first hand account—where Hogan himself said it—or someone who knew Hogan was speaking about him, but effectively it was that Hogan didn’t want to use film to analyze his own swing for himself. He apparently said that he didn’t want to see his own swing, and if he did, it would make him worse.
I tried to search for it on the web, but all I get is noise, that is videos of Hogan. If someone here can provide a reference to what I believe I’m recalling correctly, I’d greatly appreciate it.
Of course “[t]here are numerous videos of Hogan.” Everybody knows “[he] made instructional clips.” We all know about the Coleman video. That’s all a non sequitur. It’s beside the point. I’m referring to Hogan’s view on filming himself for his own analysis to make improvements to his own swing.
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With all the technology today… who is considered the “Hogan” of this generation?
I think it’s critical to be able to fix your swing out on the golf course. If you understand how your swing works, this is not hard to do. If I had to rely upon a computer app to know what is going on, I would imagine feeling completely lost on the golf course without my robotic analyzer there assisting me.
I also don’t like the idea of fitting my swing to someone else’s modeling numbers. Aiming is critical, but aiming is not necessarily square and at right angles. Like Knudson said, “every golfer has their own unique alignment”. I would further suggest that can also change from day to day. Being able to adapt to a situation, or your own situation… or how you are feeling on any given day or any given time. Being flexible and adaptable on the spot has great value for scoring. How to play the wind, how working the ball against the wind or riding the wind, or all those combinations of sidehill, uphill, downhill lies… I could not imagine trying to rely upon computer generated data for the vast amount of situations a golf course could present.
How does a computer analyzer account for feel? I play much better when I am just feeling my yardages and trusting my instinct …ALL things considered. Yardages themselves are very incomplete. All you have to do is turn on a golf event and see how many approach shots are a club or more short or long with today’s tour players who have access to all these technological aids. There are specific skill sets to learning how to feel your way around a golf course.
I don’t see golf as being that much different than watching Steph Curry netting 5 three pointers in a row from various positions on a basketball court out past the three point line. You have to feel that stuff. I don’t see those guys warming up with basketball launch monitors measuring every angle, distance, body positions etc. I am sure they work on technique etc, but flow and tempo and instinct has to be top priority to get it done.
I think great technique in golf helps tremendously. There are things you have to learn… but to excel at this game, you need to feel the shot in your body before you hit the ball, and you shouldn’t have much on your mind as you execute the shot shape toward your target. Thinking about swing positions or data numbers would most likely be counter productive. It needs to feel quick and simple.
Everything you see of Hogan, was NOT video… it was film. It was shot, and sent off to be developed which might take a few days or longer to get back. Then you would have to string it up on a projector reel to view it. Hogan DID NOT USE VIDEO… it wasn’t invented yet.
Do you ever watch the Golf Channel or listen to PGA Tour radio? There are pros there all the time describing their use of Trackman. Chesson Hadley had a great tournament a few weeks back and in his interview he said the reason for his great play was that he had spent a few days wood-shedding on Trackman to get his path issues ironed out.
I have heard of the instructional video Hogan made for a friend which he made people promise would never be released. I think it may have been mentioned in Kris Tschetter’s book about him (great read if you can find it).
I think you’re correct Mr. Hanisch that if we could somehow go back in time and present Ben Hogan with GEARS and Trackman, he’d probably tell us to take a long walk off a short pier. He was of a different time.
My prediction was that if he were born in our era, today, and was learning golf at the same time as Will Zalatoris and Jordan Spieth and McIlroy and the rest of them, he would definitely embrace tech. He allegedly would look at dozens of golf balls with a magnifying glass and interrogate them in other ways to try to eliminate bad ones; I can’t see a person like that not wanting to know what his attack angle and face angle and so forth were.
I watched a PGA section seminar by Chuck Cook, given in 2015, on YouTube today. His ideas about the swing mirror the ideas I see discussed here very closely. Talks about swinging left, about how the swing should look post impact (right arm bent and swinging left, not straight and down the line, etc.), about not losing control of the face by letting the clubhead fly, etc. Yet in the same talk he speaks fluently about how he has used modern technology to investigate and scrutinize the golf swings of many professionals he has taught through the years. He even mentioned information he saw on a GEARS-like system with Nike that taught him about how the body segments accelerate the club, and enriched his ideas about lag.
There are many ways to teach things, and just as many ways to learn. I like to cook, and have read alot about it. The great Chef Jacques Pepin learned his craft before WW2, and there was absolutely zero didactic instruction. No explanation. Certainly no science. You showed up and did what you were told, and were expected to learn just by imitating the people you were helping. You taught yourself by copying, tasting, and learning what worked for you. Today, culinary students are taught concepts, sometimes in classrooms; they are taught the science of cooking, the chemistry of it. Apprenticeships ae different. Jacques Pepin himself has cooking schools and courses that do exactly this.
It’s not like it’s a contest between feel and technology. It’s about figuring out your way to do it best. While it’s possible to have too much information, I think learning is better, faster, and more efficient when the learning environment is as enriched as possible.
Anyone can read on the web how a surgeon does an appendectomy. But we are in trouble if we start trying to do them ourselves. Similarly, there is a wealth of information available to golfers today, including the scientific information we can get from Trackman or GEARS or Hack Motion. What a golf teacher should do is be like the doctor: Be the expert, and learn all of this better than we can, so they can give us the specific prescription - tech and non-technical both - we need.
No, I live in the UK so don’t watch these things. I am talking about amateur golfers who don’t own a £20,000 trackman but have to pay £50 for an hour once a week or month.
I think trackman and flightscope would have some real positives for amateurs. IF… we had access to them on a daily basis. If you use it once a month (as my trackman location is filled in the winters) … then why bother? It would benefit me more just going to a range and judging myself on ball flight. IF they had a more inexpensive at home unit under $2 grand I would be all in. And anything under $5 grand golf tech wise is flat out garbage
And for GEARS… it’s taking a cumulative of pros swings and giving one a guideline. In a perfect world if we were all built the same. Had the same flexibility and make up. Than yes, would be a huge benefit. We have a few places here that do have GEARS. But as usual; it involves getting fitted for a set of clubs. And a package lesson program from a so called “ certified” Gears instructor. What that means is also baffling. Is that kinda like the guy who at the car garages who is GM certified ? I know the “certified” pro. And oddly he can’t break an egg on the golf course. But a great guy. Maybe I’m old school. But unless the pro who is teaching me can beat me like a drum on the course. Than I’m not going to bother listening to them
Plenty of used Flightscope units can be bought for $3,500-$6,000. I bought an X2 Elite about 5 years ago for $4,800. X2, X2 Elite, Xi+, Xi Tour, Foresight GC2, they’re all out there. I understand that’s still too much for a lot of people, but for the player who really wants to get into this stuff it can be done. And people can poopoo it all they want, but I promise anyone who spends real, quality time with a launch monitor will learn something about ballflight and about their own swings and feels.
Based on your description of gears it very much sounds like you’re describing Golftec which is very much not gears. Gears doesn’t “take a cumulative of pros” and make a model. It captures individual swings. I believe there is a model of averages that can be viewed, but it captures specific and individual swings. The goal of any instructor, in my opinion, should never be to try to get someone to swing like someone else. It should be to look at what good players do, specific biomechanics realities that are consistent across the board, and then see what their student is doing that isn’t like that. Then find the root cause that’s making that happen and address it.
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I don’t know who would be considered Hogan today. I’ve read Hogan books, watched the Shell’s Wonderful World of Golf match, and I’ve seen every piece of video of him but beyond that much of Hogan is lore. The Tour didn’t keep stats when Hogan played so it’s kind of hard to pinpoint exactly how good he hit the ball. I have a real problem just taking anecdotal stories and running with them and creating a worldview. I have no doubt Hogan was a great ballstriker. Probably one of the best, if not the best, of his time. But he was also the first guy to ever really practice according to all the stories.
I agree with you that is critical to be able to fix your swing on the course. And feel is very important. It’s all we have. Where I think we disagree is that you think technology reduces feel, but I think it improves it. I think matching feel and real up, or recognizing that what you’re feeling isn’t real, is massively important. And I also think you have a misconception that Trackman is trying to match you to numbers. Again, it’s just measuring what you did. Nothing more, nothing less. It measures and reports. You or an instructor then have to decide what to do with that.
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I remember reading a long time ago that Hogan worked really extensively on his swing with Henry Picard (pre-accident).
Picard would stand and observe Hogan’s swing from down the line, and caddy view, and would tell Hogan what he was seeing. They then developed his famous slow motion swing so they could have an idea of what feels Hogan was working with during an actual swing. I believe at the time that Hogan was working on his technique to eliminate his hook.
But I’m pretty sure if Hogan had high speed video at his disposal he would avail himself to it.
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I took a lesson from Henry Picard when I lived in Charleston SC 1985. For 45.00 he basically said 2 things.
Strengthen your left hand 3-4 knuckles and chop down on the ball.
I spent the next week chopping down thinking that was the key.
I was a big Hogan fan and wondered why he wanted me to do the exact opposite of Hogan?
I had no clue, but the orbit pull I am now using is the best motion of the whole shaft thru the shot I have ever experienced. It fits perfectly w the fundamentals Ive used w Ballard.
Trackman would not have discovered the orbit pull. I think John and Brad have real life tournament tested careers digging it out if the dirt.
No technology or Robot can do that imo.
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That’s the thing with golf instruction sometimes. You never quite know what you’ll get until you pay. 
For me, I like to see the instructor demonstrate what good shots look and sound like, hitting shots with all the clubs. And if I like what I see I’ll straight up ask them “how much would it cost for you to teach me how to do that”.
There are some instructors that work at the range where I practice who I’ve never seen hit a ball. They might be really good, but I wouldn’t hire them.
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And when nothing is empirical or measurable or objective that’s the kind of nonsense you get. I’m sure Henry Picard may have helped some people, maybe even Hogan, but “strengthen your grip and chop down on the ball” doesn’t mean anything. It’s nonsense. It’s a wild guess that it will work, that you will understand what it even means, or that your definition of “chop down on the ball” is the same as his. Chop down how? With what? When? Why?
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I also took a lesson from Jack Grout in 1981. He said 1 thing.
Roll your ankles inward
So, both Picard and Grout were done w careers teaching the greats Hogan and Nicklaus but maybe some technology would have been helpful bc those two lessons seemed a bit bandaids
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