There has been a lot of talk recently about ABS having its ‘own swing’ …
I wanted to post a couple of pics of my swing from 88 & 89 showing that whilst Lag has a more cut left path through impact to P4 my old swing had more of a CF move through impact where my right arm straightened- so there are many ways to skin a cat and stay within the boundaries of controlling your ball to it’s full effect.
What needs to be noted however is that even though they are different releases, my shaft NEVER flew off to the right like we see in so many of today’s golfers- it is an entirely different kettle of fish.
So in reality there are different looks to swings- but the avoidance of the moving of the shaft off plane after and thru impact is of paramount importance…both mine and Lag’s swing achieve a correct path through impact to the parallel 4 position but with different looks to them.
I drew lines on the shoulder plane to show this is not a steep shouldered hand roll…this is rotation through the shot with the hands and arms extending out along the line but following my body turn… not working independently and flying off to right field as would occur with the steep vertical shoulders we see in today’s swings…If people understand this concept…they are well on the way to improvement
Two ,
I can see clearly how the shaft never went to the right! Also your hands are cutting left maybe not as left as Lag does and the shaft is on plane.
As far as two different releases was one trying to draw the ball in the photo?
I don’t really remember what type of shot I was hitting but my natural shot was probably a slight draw at that time…
that’s the beauty of why I posted these pics;
I have not steepened out my shoulders…I have rotated them
Lag’s cut left look at this point will show his hands more ‘hidden’ behind his torso than mine which I believe is a direct result of my right arm straightening earlier after the strike whereas Lag would have his right arm saved longer through impact so it moves away quicker with his pivot turn and out of view from the camera from this angle
I really posted them to show the swing is about intentions…not just a look…the same result can be achieved with different objectives …which is what we like to teach the students here…
Lots of pressures going on in the swing that we all may react differently to, but all with the same focus, feel and goal and there is no set in stone ABS look to a swing
If you think I have rolled over or flicked right on this pic- take a look at the divot- where is it headed?..LEFT… right along with my pivot turn and club path…where is the ball headed?
I was planning on 30 days in the hole…but just had to sneak out to comment. This above is just incredible stuff…and all pro bono. Amazing.
In terms of understanding this concept…one thing has always puzzled me. I believe our nature is more aligned to hitting something versus waving at something. I watch countless kids pick up clubs for the first time and who have absolutely no thought of swinging the club as it were, not worried about positions, etc…it seems obvious to me that their only goal is to hit the snot out of it. I think the hit impulse is in us from birth to a large extent, and maybe is much aligned to the flight or flee impulse.
I know Lag often says “you can’t know what you don’t know”…which is so true…but even that puzzles me from the concept of the myriad teachers out there doing their thing…and just don’t seem to understand. Let me use an example.
If I was a pizza maker and knew how to make all 10 of the known and accepted varieties of dough…and suddenly someone comes out with a little different twist on making a new version of dough…one would think that the experience from knowing how the 10 known methods work, would make it easier to see and understand why the 11th version is the more efficient way to go. That I don’t get. Goofy example maybe…but best I could come up with today…been a rough morning
Here are two charts I made up with impact/post impact positions of the 1940-1995 era players and one of Modern Day players
I tried to use players of varying height, strength and weight for a cross section
It comes across as a very noticeable showing of the difference in the swings- I am not sure who exactly started the steep shoulder concept but it shows everyone has bought into it…It amazes me now that people can instruct players that this is correct…it’s just a distance slap move with the hands and timing is of the essence as shown by some of the wild tee shots we see from the highest ranked golfers in the world weekly on our TV screens.
This is an extremely difficult swing concept to control on a day to day basis and is why in today’s modern game even with the so called ‘best equipment’ we have not seen anybody for a long long time come close to matching Hogan, Trevino, Faldo for ball control and shot making around a course. It is an unfortunate fact of the way golf has trended that ball striking, especially from the tee is irrelevant in today’s modern game.
It would be awesome for the equipment to be rolled back at least a little, even if only for the pros…it needs doing because we need to find the best golfers again…not the longest from the tee who can pitch and putt.
I really think someone can come along one day having been taught the older era swing but uses the modern day equipment that can/will swing the club so much better technically than these modern players and be ON his game every day without fail, and still be able to chip and putt as good as any of the rest of them and he will win everything he plays in…period
So what it’s devolved into is an upper body arms and shoulder swing–add Johnny Vegas in that group. I think also if you spend a lot of time in the weight room–I used to, not anymore, it’s really easy to get caught up working the upper body hard and those muscles just takeover the swing. Tiger has said he enjoys lifting as much as playing golf. I can understand the mentality. Lifting gets really addicting. I think Tiger never swung better when he first came out–thin, flexible but very strong. He is now a prisoner in his present body. Also, no disrespect to Lee Westwood, but can you explain what he’s trying to do with his swing? I’ve never seen a more uncomfortable motion–looks like a thousand thoughts going through his mind–cramped flippy and unathletic.
I love how Ben still has the clubhead above the hands in that post impact shot!
I tried to make up some drills to reach that position but didnt have much luck until I stood my impact bag up (about knee/waist height and on the target side - about where Ben has his club) and did some M1’s with that. Trying to keep the clubhead above the hands and vertical into the bag.
tuition is totally to blame as I have seen it a million times with stick lines drawn on screens and dissecting swings from all angles … I have said this many times that I didn’t know my swing because I built it in the no camera/computer era so in an effort to improve I got coached…per a coach’s order and instruction I literally hit thousands and thousands of balls working on steep shoulders …a drill with the old right foot back or left foot back …one steepens the shoulders going back, the other steepens them into impact and now I know that it makes you flip roll to create any speed because your hips are blocked your shoulders can’t rotate so what else do you have left to try hit the ball with but you hands and arms…I thought I was being taught something good because I didn’t know any better… and imagined the coach would know fundamentally what made everything tick…
that is basically my mission now to slap people across the head with my mess ups so they don’t go down that path
the other problem is lightweight equipment, It’s has helped many gain distance but makes hitting the ball with any control a real task because it’s like swinging a piece of string compared to swinging a piece of wire…how are you going to time the string to be square at impact?
Take note of almost all of the modern players have erect right legs to match the steep shoulders…compare the knees and the flex of Norman and Hogan against the stiff leg stickman action of Gay and Campbell or Westwood-- it is very pronounced and actually taught- these players are taught to do that stuff which amazes me
Not so good on this one however— This is essentially why he gets inconsistent…how can you time that move all day every day week after week when th face is turning over so swiftly after impact…it’s impossible…
so what we see is wham!..a quick start to the year (Kapalua) as the expectations are low and the feel is coming along just getting warmed up…and then he seems lost for many months on end trying to fine tune and work on stuff that he can’t get the timing for…and then the year is over…it’s back to Aust, nice and relaxed and all of a sudden the timing comes back as the expectations have dropped and he polishes the year off in style again
I think a bunch of people can still get decent looking club positions up near the PV5 area because they then turn thru to try and play catch up…but the damage has been done much earlier as you can see by how much clubface roll occurs at and around impact…the timing nature of all that stuff is too hot to handle for many many people…throw in some pressure and the wheels can truly come off
Now lets see a pic of Furyk on the other side of impact…no face roll & pure body rotation with pivot turning and not steep shouldered…this is where Furyk is textbook- no matter how many times he has been called an octopus falling from a tree… he limits clubface roll into and thru impact better than anyone out there that I can think of
And just for clarification…if you think Furyk has a god awful swing…then watch the birdie- this sequence is where it all matters and he does it as good as anyone out there
Anyone for spot the difference?
I love that Hogan photo- thanks to whoever posted it(I can’t remember who.) Irons and woods, rough and fairway, but they still tell the tale. And sadly, HH was trying to make him more Hoganesque.
As an aside and on a personal note, my issues with the person posting recently were nothing to do with content and everything to do with intent. I love discussion, healthy disagreement, and debate, but that person had none of those things in mind. I apologize for my role in the madness, my goal wasn’t a negative one.
I’m not sure I can stay away too long knowing that Two is posting such gold here on his thread…
Cheers.
B
Dammit…hard to stay away from this place…it’s more addicting than red pills! But like Bom said, this stuff is golden beyond words.
I see more than one diference betweeen Hogan and Woods. For me the foot pressures speak loudly and in a functional way to the inline shaft relationships between Hogan and Woods. Hogan is clearly not in-line with the shaft post impact as he approaches P4…whereas Woods’ early in-line shaft relationship with the R arm is very telling.
Will you guys please stop with all the great stuff…it’s like holding a needle in front of an addict
As an aside…do you think that woman in the background of Hogan’s photo is trying to copy something Ben is doing…take a look at her legs and arms…she has a way to go
