Tutleman's (validating?) description of R bent-elbow physics

Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking
1

g’day ABS-ers, my 1st post here :slight_smile:

[searched for any references to the following but didn’t find any, please relocate the thread if necessary, thx]

Came across an interesting article today by good 'ole Dave Tutelman
http://www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/leecommotion1.php#Experience_With_The_Swing

describing Lee Comeaux’s “Right-Sided Approach to Swinging”,
previously known as “Leecommotion” but now apparently called “C-Motion” (?)

and occupying its own multipage home over on Mike Sevam’s Dirters

http://www.secretinthedirt.com/index.php/forum/148-lee-comeauxs-its-just-a-motion-group-forum/8010-cmotion-the-new-or-revised-pushslap-leecomotion

and the mandatory YouTube page : http://www.youtube.com/user/RSGMotion

Preface: I’m not (yet) a student of the Modules,
but am diligently studying the entire forum in preparation -

at +7, I haven’t begun playing full rounds for hdcp purposes yet this season,
but have been “sighting-in” my iron distances,
specifically with what I would term punch-type hits w/ L forearm @ 7:30 & 9:00 backswings.

Simply from studying & pondering Lag’s descriptions & discussions,
I’ve attempted to apply the ideas as best I can,
since I resonate w/ so many of the reasons/arguments for the approach.

As a result, I’ve scored even par on several 9 hole @ ~ 3450 yd “test rounds”,
w/ 7 & 8 GIR each time - a definite personal best.
Just gotta dial in the chipping/putting a little bit more :wink:

Now to the reason for the thread - in Dave’s article,
scroll down to the section titled “Why It Gives More Distance” , & here’s a small “So What” snippet :

He gives an interesting analogy using bicycle sprocket gearing.

Call me a fan-boy, but I interpret Dave as providing some physics-based explanation of, at least,
the beneficial dynamics of the bent R. elbow, as Lag is teaching it.

I’m not particularly focusing on Lee Comeaux’s swing, but simply Tutleman’s description of the bent R. elbow phenomenon,
or, not allowing the R arm to fully straighten at/before impact, as I understand Lag’s descriptions.

Strike that ball !

2

Thanks for taking the time to put this post together.
It’s important to remember that any effort to simply keep the right arm bent must be accompanied by an increase in post impact pivot thrust. Most golfers throw the right arm at the ball because their torso and shoulders are not working optimally.
We also have to be moving everything in the right direction and have the proper support in the lower body for it all to function correctly.

It similar to trying to swing on plane using flashlight drills and other silly similar devices. Unless swing plane is being created by opposing pressures and forces you will continue to hit the ball crooked wondering why or how can this be?.. or scratching your head because you think you are doing things correctly when in fact you are not.

3

thx sensei :bulb:

4

I watched a bit of his video. What this ‘breakthrough’ swing he is feeling and describing is he just basically discovered pure TGM “Hitting” on his own. A thrust of the right hand to the ball from the top with right-arm straightening fully by impact. It is all spelled out down to his feeling of not trying to hold lag, etc. He just combined a Sean Foley/SnT type weight-on-left focus and a ten-finger grip. Amazing the following he has gotten just for describing TGM hitting in laymens terms and giving it a name. How long until an eventual DVD?

Anyway, back on topic, I have tried very hard to maintain a bent right-arm into impact and it is darn hard. It is a completely different motion that my body just doesn’t seem to want to do. A right-arm wants to straighten naturally and I suspect it is a large reason beginners cast and leak power. Hmm, Didn’t hogan say to reverse every natural inclination? Guy was pretty smart…

5

The right arm will always want to straighten until the pivot rotation gets up to speed post impact. Once that happens, the right arm can take the weekend off and go fishing… maybe even start pulling against an 80 pound Sturgeon that resembles the forces of the club moving out and away from us.

6

I looked at it a little too. It looks to me like a hybrid version of TGM hitting versus a pure version. He is not really driving the primary and secondary lever radially with the right arm. I think he is inferring that the left arm is real limp so that he can just send the right hand to his aiming point.

Real close stuff though. In a feel sense, all he is doing is “throwing darts” toward the ground with his right hand from that right wrist position at the top. So it’s more of a throw against a limp left lever versus driving a firmer left lever with the right arm. Pretty close to the same though.

My TGM stuff is a little hazy…thank God :laughing: …but that’s what I saw when I watched it. :slight_smile:

7

Looks a bit like the “knuckle-fade” guy (can’t remember his name). A bit of a violent recocking action. Is this becoming the latest “action” to be discovered?

8

Not sure that I’ve ever heard the term knuckle fade before…what is it? :slight_smile:

9

The recocking thing is something O Grady was (is?) big on… but this only works of you have Mac’s wonderful post impact pivot thrust. If the torso is not accelerating, then the recocking is just a flip… and this is what I see all Mac’s students doing on these videos that circulate around the web. To an untrained eye, it looks the same, but it’s not.
Mac’s shots come fizzing of the face while the students don’t. I have never once seen him talk about it to any of them… very strange because it’s the one thing that he does so much better than most anyone else. I see him talking a lot about all these angles and stagnant positions you are supposed to hit… but not how to rip it through post impact with the pivot.

10

Diamond in the rough there! :sunglasses:

And for us weaklings, it may feel like pulling against a 50 pound perch…either way the fish ends up on the left side of the boat! :laughing:

11

That’s the shot that Geoff Jones (Slicefixer on golfwrx) teaches. His free pdf “Encyclopedia Texarkana” is worth reading. He’s the closest I’ve found to a semi-mainstream teacher that gets a few ABS concepts right.

12

Agree totally. I forget where I saw it but it was Mac working with some students and talking precise angles at certain positions. Very sanitary stuff… but the “how” seemed to be missing.

Any ideas as to why the re-cock? What purpose does it serve? Is it an intention with benefits? Don’t see many swings on tour that employ it, not that that’s validation of anything. :open_mouth:

13

If you think about it… it’s simply resisting CF with a hitters release. Trying to hold wristcock to keep the shaft from dipping below plane post impact. Of course you have to be turning level going through it… but if you do, and are not flying the arms off the body like a swinger, then what Mac is promoting makes good sense.

14

In the stack and tilt camp (and I presume the Morad camp) the rapid recocking of the wrists is seen as desirable for velocity. If player A has the club vertical witht he clubhead up when arms are parallel to the ground in the follow through and player B has the club and arms more inline at p4 then player A will have moved the clubhead farther in the same amount of time therefore more velocity.

My hunch is that this is something the S&T camp would rather divorce theirselves from if they could (they do also talk alot about rate of closure of the clubhead and reducing it post impact so they are aware of the benefits) but it’s in the books and videos so they are stuck with it.

15

One question.

In what I have discovered so far I have trained my pivot to work in conjunction with the right arm unfolding on the downswing, simply waiting for it to fold onthe the 120 or so degrees that have been talked about here and is something that came from Mac. Close to impact i increase my left armpit pressure and then pull/push through Hard with the pivot knowing the right arm is securely in the right position having squared the clubface with the forearm. What I am wondering is what I have described somehow fundamentally different to Lags teachings? I know it´s related but is the 120 degree unfolding something that people are not focusing on?

Regards CP

16

A response from the cheap seats!

I don’t focus on that at all, although if I were to measure it I’m sure it would be close to that. I think that compound angle about the R arm is really more a result of harnessing and using maximum shear forces from behind the ball once transition puts you into a position to do so. If the pivot is strong enough the club will come barreling on through without any disturbance in the orbit while also being full of oppositional pressure in the shaft. However if the pivot stalls or slows any after transition, it feels like one is trying to “jam” the club through the zone due to the disruption about the arm and elbow area. I’m guilty of this “jamming” aspect when I get tired or lazy when using the pivot.

Go as hard as you can left while the shaft is seeking right and out, and it will motor on through just where you want it. But there is this “stretched” feeling between the right and left sides after transition while pulling hard and going left that will be felt strongly in the left hip area. So in essence, you are going in 2 directions at the same time…net zero. A lot of this is grounded in how well the right leg is used to anchor the transition piece…then let things “rip apart”.

Just some rat ramblings. :slight_smile:

17

Good stuff RR, I appreciate the insight. I think especially about the club zipping through on plane in certain situations, given the pivot is working properly is a usefeul thought. Sometimes I have problems “trusting” the pivot and do strange inconsistent things. But when im playing my best im ripping it hard left and as you say, the club just obeys the forces.

Regards

CP.

18

CentriPedal,

Your descriptions sound good.
One thing to be aware of when viewing DTL footage is that the right elbow will appear to be more bent pre impact and less bend post impact due to a change in perspective created by the rotation of the torso. The right arm may very well appear to straighten post impact more than it does in reality because you are getting a more rear view of the elbow as it moves around and to the left. You could think of bending or folding a plastic straw, and if you secured both ends stationary, but then moved the bent center point around, the amount of bend you would see visually would change depending upon the rotational perspective. At two points in a 360 degree path, it would appear to be straight.

The golf swing is a 3D event, not a 2D event. It’s arcs transposed onto hyperbolic shapes, which are very complicated in mathematics and something even Homer Kelley avoided in TGM. This is why I teach the feelings and sensations of intentions that are very much outside the traditional realm of flat planes, straight lines and vectors because golf is simply not played on a 2D board like a video screen.

These are very general 2D images or attempts to represent 3D space, but this is what the golf swing is… in a general sense…
we are dealing with a lot of this “kind” of stuff in the golf swing. Don’t take these as literal images of the golf swing… but just to make a point…
1.jpg2.jpg

19

A lot to chew on here certainly, thank you for posting your insightful comments.

I have done alot of thinking about the golf swing, but most of my progress has come from turning the thougths and ideas coming from ABS to feelings. Mabye I should stop to try to decode everything and just jump into the modules. It has taken me quite some time just understanding the little I know to function adequately, and interacting with Two And Lag thorugh module work would without a doubt speed things up a bit:). It funny, everything you mention in your post( regarding the right arm) is something I have been brainstorming endlessly about lately, thanks again!

Regards

CP.

20

I suppose I could write out all the text for the modules and many would not improve. It is just so critical that I review students actions through video and or in person. I can see things fine with a decent camera. I am also a student of the module work and have to re direct myself from time to time… but less and less and I improve my own action. This game is a process, and an enjoyable one. I think it helps greatly to have a trained eye view the motions of the body… certainly within this framework. Each module preps for the next… either directly or indirectly. It’s not easy and some will grasp things better than others. Some will persevere more than others.

I read recently a defector ABS student who only half completed module #1, then went bashing the program on some other forum saying it didn’t work for him. I had to laugh really… as that makes about as much sense as trying to drive a car with most of the motor laying on the mechanics garage floor. This is one of the reasons I am not taking on looky loos who only want to try out one module. Sure it might help some, but at a bare minimum it’s like train tracks… you need two sides of the track and the connectors to hold them in place.

1 Like